Criminal Psychologist Linda Sage Talks about the Criminal Mind

What makes a killer? Is it nature or nurture? Not until Jack The Ripper and HH Holmes did the public even recognize the proclivity to kill in mass. 

We know it must have been a psychological need to kill throughout history but only in modern times has the human race begun to study and tear apart psychology.

 Our questions today are:  does culture and nurture change how people kill and more?

 Linda Sage is an expert on the psychology of serial killers and joins us today.

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Transcript

Paul G: 0:12

What makes a killer? Is it nature or nurture? Not until Jack the Ripper and Hh Holmes to the public even recognize We know it must have been a psychological need to kill throughout history, but only Our questions today, does culture and nurture change the way in Linda Sage is an expert on the psychology of serial killers and joins us today. Linda, are where are you at today?

Linda Sage: 0:50

Oh, great to be with you. I'm actually, uh, in Spain at the moment in the cost, um, blanket. So about halfway, just have halfway down the Spanish, uh, Eastern coast.

Paul G: 1:02

Cool. I've never been out of the country.

Andrea: 1:07

I haven't either, but always wanted to go to England, to be honest. Nice.

Linda Sage: 1:11

And as you can tell the accent, Yes. I'm from the other side of the pond. My home normally is in England.

Paul G: 1:17

Well, you're halfway, you're, you're a quarter of We're on the other side of the pond.

Andrea: 1:25

So tell us a little bit about how you got into criminal psychology. I mean, that just totally like blows my mind. I'm thinking. Do you have to go to, to get a degree? What kind of training do you get? I've always wanted to know the answer to that question.

Linda Sage: 1:42

Well, we're going back a long way here cuz I've So when you think about going back that far, it wasn't really. Um, that well thought of. And I was the first person in my family to go to university He was thinking, Oh, we've got a doctor, or, you know, a lawyer And when I went to the university open day, I had no idea really And I was speaking to some different people there. And this one professor said, Before you do anything, Go and listen to this lecture. And I went and listened to the lecture and it was just like all That's it. And that was psychology. After then, I'd never even entertained it. I didn't even know what it was and when I went home, so happy to tell Uh, my dad actually didn't speak to me for three weeks.. Oh no. Well, because according to him, psychology were, or sociology Oh, wow. Oh wow.

Paul G: 2:53

Well, you know, and, and there's, I hate to say it, but there's a little Uh, I didn't finish, keep that in mind, but, uh, the, like the first class I had, in the early, early, early nineties, he said that they threw anything they And I'm like, what the heck is that about?

Linda Sage: 3:31

Yeah. Yeah. So much so, so much is not being understood and we still don't understand, and things going on, you know, all through, all through my lifetime and But, um, we, we are still learning about and society changes and life Cause then we used to go to universities closer to home. We didn't always tend to go that far away. We'd go to campus near newer home and, um, I didn't start off to I mean, it actually fell in after a while because like most people, working with victims or you start off working, uh, through, through doctors And it, a friend of mine was working for and had going into prison on remand, it You couldn't even imagine doing it. You know, you wouldn't get a student going in to do, let line into a

Paul G: 4:49

especially a female student, I mean, You know, that's, that

Andrea: 4:57

Well, when I was in nursing school, we went to the state But that was only because there wasn't a whole lot of options So,

Linda Sage: 5:09

but, um, I, I don't think it's so much for the women because I But also, I mean, just security wise, you wouldn't go be able to just go into Now, now the security measures are so much different. Yeah. But um, so I was lucky the respect that in those times, , we could get referred wardrobe, you know, people like this that people would normally never have

Paul G: 5:57

know, So one thing that I like to do at the beginning, and most people more towards the beginning, is that you, do you have any publications, Of course. And what, what are you, what are your, what are, what is your generating of I'm, I'm sitting here spinning my wheels, but whatever., I think you know where I'm going. Well,

Linda Sage: 6:27

To be honest, this is just, just changed because I actually, uh, came So, uh, I actually officially stopped working in the prison, so Let's clarify

Paul G: 6:42

for our American listeners, when you say you got out of prison,? Linda Sage: Yeah, I've been in

Andrea: 6:54

You were working in the

Linda Sage: 6:55

prison. I say luckily they always gimme the keys. Yes. So,

Paul G: 7:03

Yeah, we were, I was like, Wait, what? So I, , so miraculous is just attach different, That's all. Linda Sage: So I'll be, I'll be working Um, I officially finished in July, but um, I still do some work I've got my own set of talks that I've now started, right. Uh, serial killers and psychopaths. And then the second one that was launched was women and Children Who Kill. And there will be more coming up in those series. And then I'm working on a book now, which will be out hopefully your. Full Autum time. So that'll be, um, uh, talking to killers. The, the previous one I had out was caring for the caregiver. So it's about the mentality of people that care for others about caring for yourself. Okay. So now one thing I'm curious, do you, have you, uh, delved into the Uh,

Linda Sage: 8:16

uh, as some, as that is interesting cause my actual, my next, I, I dunno if you've heard of Dennis Nielsen. I was talking to some, I was doing, uh, some networking the other day with an Oh. So I'm actually doing, um, a talk on, uh, the, the similarities of the. Okay.

Paul G: 8:48

Cause that's what I was wondering. I was thinking about this. It's kind of, uh, running the ideas through my head. I'm like, What, what are the differences? Because I'm, I imagine there's a big difference. For, for example, we have like I 95 killer in the highway and, They go from New York to LA or something like that. That's like two, 2000 miles. And along the way, these guys would kill people and no one could And it made sense why they couldn't figure out who was doing it cuz Um, you know, we had a guy in the seventies, I think it was, He would get on the radio and call for the, uh, the what we, what we And, um, he would get 'em in the truck and kill 'em. And no one could ever figure out who did it. And, and so now we've got, actually got a task force that, uh, all they And, cause there's a whole subset of killers there that no one, no one's really Yeah,

Linda Sage: 10:08

I mean, well we had done obviously Pete, uh, Pete Siff, he's driver and, uh, Pete Tobin, who's actually in the news at the moment Their two of our are quite prolific killers. So the Yorkshire Ripper, obviously that was big. I

Andrea: 10:30

did watch something obviously on Netflix on that, man. It was, they call it the, Yeah, he was kind of like the Jack, It was quite interesting. Peter Tobin, That name does sound familiar. Well, it's

Paul G: 10:43

interesting because true crime in America is, and the podcast killers or maybe Canadians or a Mexican one every now and again just Uh, but we never hear about the stuff that happens in Europe or England

Andrea: 11:03

other than Jack the Ripper, which everyone

Paul G: 11:05

knows about. Yeah. But that's so long ago. I mean, it's more of lower at this.

Linda Sage: 11:10

Mind you. Yeah, there's lots of, uh, things going on with, uh, still Cause uh, a lot of the theories are that it was actually a woman.

Andrea: 11:19

I heard that theory, how she was a midwife and could It makes. Makes sense. It's a good theory, but,

Paul G: 11:26

but so does HH Holmes. He also makes sense that it could be the same guy. I mean,

Andrea: 11:31

well people, what do DNA testing on a Shaw that one of the victims had? I think I read true crime is something I've always enjoyed. So I'm definitely gonna take a lookout for your lectures cuz I would so ever on a web format for, obviously I can't hop on a plane to England, but

Paul G: 11:49

can, but it just would be very, you know, you'd Yeah.. Yeah. That,

Linda Sage: 11:55

that's, that that's on the way. But I think, you know, it's a, I'm just getting started. I've actually got a webinar starting also on, um, a corporate psychopath. Cause a lot of people think that psychopaths are only acts, Yeah. They are not, There's lots and lots in the, the boardrooms

Paul G: 12:16

hyper aggressive men.

Andrea: 12:17

I've heard. Absolutely heard that. And so, what characteristics do these people have? Or do you not wanna give it away and wait for your, your lecture to come?

Linda Sage: 12:25

Yeah. No, no. I mean, yeah. A lot of the traits that you think of that are highly desirable in leaders are Yeah. And they're very chameleonlike, so they're normally the people, you quite attractive that people feel at ease talking to them, but they will They like being in power. They like people to, to look up to. If they are somebody that's important to them, they will be that person for them. If it's somebody that they don't value, they would be very rude and very chaotic. Hmm. And their ruthlessness. Often they're seen as, Oh, they can make decisive decisions in Yes. But, but they are literally, they are ruthless and so many people

Paul G: 13:27

I, you know, if you're going to war, that's probably the best To be honest, I think Patton might have been a little bit of, of a,

Linda Sage: 13:40

Hmm. Yeah. As, as, as long as they, you've got somebody perhaps on, on the second the decisions in warfare, but not necessarily worry about the numbers Well,

Paul G: 14:04

you know, our famous general that was just balls to the wall and Mm-hmm.. Um, and I, you know, Montgomery was the other general, that was Mm-hmm.. Yeah, totally. And, uh, I was, you know, I wonder, it makes you wonder, It just kind of hit I think Grant was just kind of weird. But anyway, Go. I'm sorry. Go ahead. No, no,

Linda Sage: 14:41

no. They, they exist everywhere. There's, they're all, you know, even Dalma and Nielsen, et cetera are somebody's So they exist everywhere.

Paul G: 14:51

Yeah. So what is the, But just because they exist doesn't

Linda Sage: 14:59

Um, uh, usually I say, yeah,

Andrea: 15:05

Sorry. I guess what I'm trying to, I guess what he's trying to say is like, you know, cross the line of being like a hyper assertive person to a person that's gonna Choice. So that choice, do you think it's like morality or just something that they've.

Linda Sage: 15:31

I mean, there, there, there's developmental signs of, of, um, But like when you started off the program, you said about nature and nurture. You know, that's still a huge question. Every university that's involved with the, the social sciences is still doing And there's no concrete answer because there's a lot of people that get But nine times out of 10, they've either gotten addictive personality, they self So there, there is a line. And with, even within the, the, the killers, you know, especially like for DMA You know, they, they, they, they didn't fit in well with other people. So especially if people were on the autistic spectrum, there's that I mean, it, it's not a usual way, obviously. Yeah.

Andrea: 16:56

Obviously keeping parts in your freezer is not a

Paul G: 16:58

usual way. Well, you know, I mean, you can go talk to it anytime you want. Oh gosh. Yeah,

Linda Sage: 17:03

exactly. So, I mean, That, that, that was the big difference between, um, Um, I mean, this is a bit blunt, but he got the, a lot of sex gratification And this is right when he was, you know, the, the, the corpses. Whereas Nielsen, um, um, decapitated and sort of brutalized the bodies as So there was, there was a big diff that big difference there. His was, he kept the bodies whole and he had them, um, in the living room Oh wow. So, The, the sexual fantasies were still there for both of So

Andrea: 18:06

I've heard that the classic warning science, I, I can't remember the first part of it, but like bedwetting, fire I think both of that's been disproven though, hasn't it been disproven, But Okay. Do you define a kid just playing around and curious or someone who's Animal thing that I think hands down that kind of explains itself, but.

Linda Sage: 18:36

But then again, I think is, it's like, I think it's a bit like There's different things that show when you put them together. And I think this is where, um, people have to talk. So like the parents, the medical, the education is really important, people talk together because they get different views of a person or Cause they could be one type of person in the home, they could be a different Makes sense. So, yeah. And it's a sweeping statement because it's not completely true, but traumas development into adulthood. We had

Paul G: 19:31

one serial killer, I can't remember his name offhand. I I, I knew it like a day ago. It's just one of those brain farts. Um, but he was raised normal and his family was nice and kind. He okay grades, he had girlfriend and then all of a sudden he So not necessarily do you see the traits? I

Andrea: 19:55

think for a mother, you know, you want your children You wanna keep if from trauma. And unfortunately, sometimes situations happen. But I guess for me, I would wanna know, okay, if my kid is kind of So I , what do I do to kind of help? Obviously counseling and therapy, getting them to talk. But I guess sometimes people just, whatever is in their personality,

Linda Sage: 20:27

As I said, it was a sweeping statement and We've had killers that yet come from good family backgrounds and things like this. So there is, this is the whole point. There's no one blueprint. Makes sense that because you've one said you are going to be a serial But the thing is as well, do the parents actually want to see it? When you actually look back through, uh, stories of people, it's very easy to say. Yeah. Right. Then you can look back and think, Oh yeah, that was a sign. That was a sign. But at the time, do the people actually want to see those signs? Yeah. Do they acknowledge? Yeah. You know, you are saying, If that was my child, I don't wanna be the Did they acknowledge 'em? Did they accept them?

Paul G: 21:22

Well, there's a saying in the United States, I don't know if I'm sitting here like, I just completely forgot what I was gonna say.. Oh,. Andrea: I think what you starting Parents probably in the middle of that don't see it or don't wanna see it. Yeah. Hindsight's 2020, right? Yeah. Yeah. So it, it just, because you could put it together, cuz it makes logical But if you don't know the outcome, I mean, Just because somebody's acting It could mean that they're just not, you know, well versed in And they're getting there. Yeah.

Linda Sage: 22:08

Yeah. And you unfortunately, you know, and, and now society is getting much more isolated. I mean, this is great. You know, you are one side of the world, on the other side of the world, and we Yeah. Which is incredible. You know, if we'd said this to our, you know, grandparents, they would've

Paul G: 22:32

space Aliens from the future.

Linda Sage: 22:35

Yeah, exactly. So I mean, but also it has the other side of effect. You know, you don't see the kids out running around and playing outside, you And definitely in the uk we are seeing a huge rise in young, um, violent Yeah. Um, within, within our young people

Paul G: 22:59

because, well, same here, we're, we're experiencing the same thing. Our uptick of violent crime is also, uh, is also, um, very noticeable So it's happening over here as well. Yeah, I,

Linda Sage: 23:12

you know, again, I, our, our first real young killer, uh, was But going back to pre that, when we were talking about Jack the River, I mean, by men, People, women were thought to be not intelligent enough to kill or to So that's why a lot of the pre World War I, serial killers, female ones were It was usually, you know, if for them to move on to, to have a better life. Yeah. Or to go financially, Um, through the twenties and thirties, you After the second World war, then you tend to see that things start revolving again. But the women, because they've been in more masculine environments, Then they become more, more manual. Yeah. As well is where we

Paul G: 24:20

get. And in the United States, we've seen an uptick of female incarceration. It used to be like 30 to one 30 men for every one woman. Something crazy number like that. And now it's, it's, it's going down. There's more violent crimes being committed by women than before. And you know, I really, there's a whole lot of stuff you could talk it well enough to, to to, to, you know, write a, you know, write a white

Linda Sage: 24:54

And, and a female prison is always more volatile than a, a male prison into prison, it's always assumed that the female, whether the wife or the girlfriend Whereas if a woman goes into prison nine times outta 10, the man doesn't have the So there's all, all the background where you know about the children, So the tension in a female prison is always higher than, than a male person. That makes

Andrea: 25:30

sense. But I never would've thought of that. But that makes perfect sense. So, Mary Bell, Wait, who is this? I, I'm like, who's

Linda Sage: 25:37

this She, she was a 10 year old and she, uh, she killed two young boys. But again, at the time, um, they didn't think a child could, Murder She was convicted of manslaughter with diminished responsibility because they So it was, um, Did she kill when

Paul G: 26:04

she got out?

Linda Sage: 26:06

No, she, she, she's, um, she did, she served 12 years. She got out, uh, she has married, she's had a daughter and she went back. She, Cause she had her identity changed. Yeah. And she, uh, when she had her daughter, her daughter was 11, Oh no. And then so she went back and had her identity changed again, but she And then when she had her granddaughter, she's been back and had the identity

Paul G: 26:38

So, But she's never re-offended? No. Not as suppose or no, no. Yeah, right. Not in the court system anyway.

Linda Sage: 26:45

No, no. She's never been back in inside again.

Paul G: 26:48

What was the, what, what was her reasoning for killing those two kids?

Linda Sage: 26:54

She strangled them. Right. You know, But she, she just said both of them had sore I, there there's never been a huge amount of investigation done, because Yeah.

Paul G: 27:14

It's like, Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And that's, it's that, that's still in the system today. I think, you know, a female gets up for a crime that's generally on bail crime. It's, it's like we have an America, sometimes we have, uh, female teachers and they generally get 30 to 40% less jail time than their male counterpart. Yeah. Seriously. Yes,

Linda Sage: 27:43

it's true. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we, women do tend to get less, I could get the

Paul G: 27:48

numbers wrong, but. It's there.

Linda Sage: 27:51

Yeah. I think, you know, there perhaps the same. I mean, definitely in the uk you know, our women's prison were very limited spaces. This is what we are. We've already had three life turners, uh, life tariffs given to, to women. I mean, in the whole of our history. Wow. And that, that's, um, Myra, Henley, Rose West, and Joe and Donnay, they must

Paul G: 28:17

have done something

Andrea: 28:17

really bad. Myra Henley, that name sounds very familiar.

Linda Sage: 28:21

Moore's murderers. Ah, yeah. Myra. He and Brady. Ah,

Andrea: 28:26

yes, yes, yes. I remember that I, listening to that case and that was just, I just totally blew Manson. Well, yeah. Manson and over here. That's true. Yeah. It just totally blow my mind.

Linda Sage: 28:44

Very, very, very different in my experience working with both of them. I think, um, Myra Henley was very much, without a doubt, Ian Brady was Wow, really? Yeah. Wow.

Paul G: 29:05

So if have, have you done a lot of study into American serial killers? I'm sure you have

Linda Sage: 29:11

some, Some, yeah. I've, because obviously we, we look at, uh, similarities and things between,

Paul G: 29:26

What, what would you think the major, the, since you've,, Uh,

Linda Sage: 29:36

yeah, yeah,

Paul G: 29:37

yeah. Can, can you elaborate on that?

Linda Sage: 29:40

All, all the, all of the ones I've never worked on. We have a a four category prison system here. We have like the A cat, which is like your super max, the, the B, the C, and the D. So the A and the Bs are usually, or the most violent and long-termers, Yeah. Things like that. You go down into the, the, the lower categories. So my work time has always been with the A and the B cap ERs. Okay.

Paul G: 30:15

So it's always been murders and, and rapists and Yeah. Yeah. So I'm just, I, I'm really curious as to what, have you found anything

Linda Sage: 30:39

You can find ties if you are looking for them. Like we said before about the childhoods, about the upbringing, signs and things like this, but you know, we're talking about across cut You know, you have intelligent killers and you have very uneducated killers. You have, you know, young people, you have older people. So it is, it is cut across the society. I think that we have a, a, a representation and serial killers I know in the states, you know, you, you do have more, but your So yeah,

Paul G: 31:22

we have 350 million people.

Linda Sage: 31:25

Yeah. So probably it's representative of your size, of your population

Paul G: 31:31

as well. I would imagine it, I would imagine it is. It's like people say, Oh, the biggest cities are so dangerous while., but it doesn't. So is the farm town , you know, and that's just because you're really just dealing If you meet a thousand people, at least one of 'em is gonna be somebody

Linda Sage: 31:56

Yeah. I mean is people say to me, I get asked a lot about, Oh, you know, how does Well, you know, when you are in a prison, these people have already been called. Right? So you know what they've done. You know who they are, you know what they're capable of. Yeah. There's no guessing. And obviously, and we got systems in place, whereas when you are in a

Paul G: 32:22

But that doesn't mean that everybody you meet We're talking about one out of a thousand generally. But

Linda Sage: 32:32

I know, I know more about the person that I'm in the room with Exactly.

Andrea: 32:39

So when you're helping, do you like counsel these people in prison or Do you like, I guess I picture them sitting on a couch I mean that's, I doubt that. I doubt that, but I'm just thinking like, Exactly. Do you interview just for information, for knowledge or. Do you try to

Linda Sage: 32:58

help them? It depend. Yeah. It, it depends what we, what we're, uh, we're actually working for, you know, or if it's while they're in prison, then they will go through different Then, and also, again, talking to them, studying them, they are getting You know, if there's anything else that comes out. Cause quite often there's other, other, other crimes that have been So it could, it could be a variety of right across the I'm sure they're, uh, also you get a lot of violence within prison,

Paul G: 34:00

well., I'm sure.

Andrea: 34:03

So is there any of these people, like you said in prisons A and

Paul G: 34:10

Oh, sure. Imagine they would

Linda Sage: 34:11

be. I mean, I don't know how it works here to me.

Andrea: 34:13

Yeah, I mean, to me I'm thinking like, here are serial killer. Like, you, you stay in prison forever, you know, Or someone who's I guess to us, we just hear about the bad guys and they stay in prison for life or

Paul G: 34:25

there's some people to get out.

Linda Sage: 34:27

That's a scary point. Yeah. Your, your system on is a little bit different. Cause obviously you've got states where you've got your death penalty. We don't have that here at all. Now know that was, that was created within, in, in 65 because Myra Hinley Otherwise, I think they probably would've been put, you know? Yeah. Uh, Hammer,

Paul G: 34:52

it's cheaper to have a 35 caliber bullet than it is Yeah.

Andrea: 34:58

I guess it's kind of disturbing to think about some of these people. Like, do you think they ever will get better or change their ways? I mean, obviously the little 10 year old girl, Mary Bell did, but to the most part, Or can you even rehabilitate these people?

Linda Sage: 35:17

I, again, it is like anything else, if somebody wants If you are wanting them to change, would change, you know? Um, Our life tariff means, Yeah. It now means full life tariff, so that means that they, they won't get out. Okay. Okay. But that we've got, we've got about, I think there's about 80 prisoners Wow.

Paul G: 35:47

82,000 prisoners in the uk.

Linda Sage: 35:50

Yeah. All the categories. Yes. Wow. Wow.

Paul G: 35:53

We've got way more than

Andrea: 35:57

that. I guess that's why it's so baffling to us when you say like 80 people that are Yeah. So it's totally, I guess, mind blowing for us, just the differences

Linda Sage: 36:12

Wow. I, we we're getting lots of, I mean, the terrors have gone up because obviously Um, but, um, gun crime as, uh, as well, particularly through the youngsters. I mean, gun crime here was not prevalent. It wasn't like, uh, for yourselves. We, we did. It was, yeah, when you talk about the craze or when you talk about, you know, It's quite easy for, for people now to. Get their hands on um, guns, which, uh, again, cause our majority of

Andrea: 36:59

Right. Yeah. That's why I was kind of like, Whoa. Interesting. Cuz that's a different concept. Well, you

Paul G: 37:05

know, it's, it's interesting too when you, we, we, here in the And it really is not that if you do the statistics on it, if you can get your we have probably 800 million weapons in the United States was a minuscule I'm excluding those from this example just for the, keep the shock value down. But you know, some dude shooting another dude, I mean, we got 800 million, and yet, you know, our crime rate may a little bit larger than the

Linda Sage: 38:01

No, I, I, I think, you know, when you look back at history, I mean, They, they'd used shotguns or short sort off shotguns or something like this. Uh, it wasn't that usual for, for the hang guns and things like this. Um, that's been more of a, a modern inner city phenomena than anything else.

Paul G: 38:28

Detroit still experiences, uh, tons of gun crime and New York City has been doing really well. We did an interview with the New York City, uh, police officer And as we're talk today, we're talking to you and. The murder rate in New York City in 2021 was 398 people. At a seven and a half million people, just 398 people were murdered. That's insane. I didn't really, But as you go back to 1980, it was like 3,900 people. Yeah. So, yeah, I think things are getting better or not worse, but contrary You know,

Linda Sage: 39:17

the media have a lot of hand in this because they tend to, to psych up. Um, these people, they make them into phenomena. And I, and I must admit, you know, from my experience working in prisons, you get this, and they get bags of mail, they get fan mail, and it's just like, you know, Yeah, exactly. I got

Paul G: 39:45

a question about that, that, that leads me to a question. Um, in the United States, we have this weird thing that happens when somebody All of a sudden they find, I mean this is notoriously Bundy. All of a sudden there's a woman that comes up out of the woodwork and he's Yeah. Does that happen in the uk? Yeah.

Linda Sage: 40:13

Yeah. I mean, again, not as many times, uh, as there, Cause obviously we don't But yes, there's no victorious people, uh, Charles bro. And, um, he's been married twice in prison. His first wife, Dunno, did die, but, uh, not through him or anything But, um, I, in fact, he, he, um, has killed more in prison than he, He actually went in for a lesser effect,

Andrea: 40:43

I guess. Got it. Why? Why we won. Get, why were you, So what is a case that has stuck with you the most? That you know? You will always either remember in a good way or a positive way, but one that if you anybody about a case, this would be like the number one thing cuz it made an impact

Linda Sage: 41:11

Um, well, I mean the one that was my turning point that, I was working. Obviously like most people, you start working within the police, you start a horrendous, it was a child killing in London, but it was absolutely a The actual effects of the killing of the child. I had always found it difficult to deal with the victim of Um, but that was so horrendous that I just thought, no, you know, working with the my, my boundaries that, you know, when I, I, I work with them one, when they're I know what they've done. I can imagine what a two year old or a 10 year old or whoever So it was, it was my safeguard. Yeah.

Paul G: 42:33

Makes sense. It does make a lot of sense because if you had to deal with the, you Um,

Linda Sage: 42:45

yeah, I mean, you know, I take that off cause there's people obviously Incredible job. They do. But I, I just found that, you know, that that was too, too much

Paul G: 43:02

Yeah. And you can, you can focus on why and how, not, not necessarily

Linda Sage: 43:11

Yeah. And, and also I'm, I'm must admit, I mean, detection rates Cause when you think about the historic cases, they went on for years. Yeah. You know, when we talk about Shipler and like, when we're talking about Rose West Whereas now they are, the detection rate is getting much quicker at, Whereas before, they weren't putting the pieces of the jigsaw together. Well,

Paul G: 43:44

now we have the, you know, we got the database, there's a, they Mm-hmm.. And so now, yeah, they, the police, local police can go to the highway killings and. They put the, the, the, for lack of a better term, Modus op operandi, right? Yamo, yeah. Yeah. They, for lack of, they can go and, and put those terms in and then find So we can catch people now. And, uh, it's, yeah, but you know, in 1980 it ain't, that wasn't gonna happen.

Andrea: 44:20

Well, think of BTK and here, how long he went around doing his A computer to catch him. I mean, it's

Paul G: 44:28

No, what caught BTK was btk. Yeah. It was

Andrea: 44:31

btk, more or less. DISC caught himself a disc, and they did computer forensics. It's just, he's an idiot. Well, they all are technically. Yeah. But, you know, it's just, it's like, man,

Linda Sage: 44:43

you know, Whew. Go. I was just saying they, they get a bit blase. They get, you know, they get used to what they're doing and think that this is You know, I'm too good to get caught.

Paul G: 44:59

Do you think it's that they feel like they're good too good to

Linda Sage: 45:08

It depends. I mean, it depends on the psyche of, of the person, but most people don't Right. If they didn't get caught, they'd still be doing what they were doing.

Paul G: 45:26

Yeah. You know, I, I agree with that because there were, Usually when you get caught, in your life, it's because you've done it four or five times and you screwed

Linda Sage: 45:40

Yeah. I mean there there is, there is a lot difference. I mean, you, you sort of mentioned about mass murderers. I mean, for us, we have a distinction. Normally a mass murder is somebody that kills as many Okay. Whereas the serial killer is two or more people at different times. But using, uh, similar

Paul G: 46:01

methods, I, I suppose, true here too. I was, sometimes I speak out the side of my head. It just happens. So when was

Andrea: 46:10

the term serial killer? I guess coined, wasn't it? I'm thinking it wasn't it what? Late seventies, early eighties. I mean, for us, we had like, Oh, we had Dahmer and then we had, um, What's Mr. Clown Man?

Linda Sage: 46:24

What's his name? Escapes me. Yeah. Casey. Yeah, Casey

Paul G: 46:30

Joany. Yeah. Casey is so funny because he had his picture taken with the president's wife. Oh my God.. Yeah. Harder's wife. He has, there's a picture, but again,

Linda Sage: 46:44

That that's ceo, the ose per, you know, per, they want to be seen

Paul G: 46:53

Well, what about people like, and if we go back to the net Netflix the United States, Cause I can't speak to the UK cause I don't know, or the England, Seriously? Watch Mine Hunter. Mine Hunter? Yeah. Yeah. What was the, the one guy that they kept coming to? Uh, Kemper. Kemper. Yeah. Edward Kemper. Uh, a guy like that, he didn't want to be grandiose about it. He just really had a problem with his mother.. Yeah.

Linda Sage: 47:27

Yeah. I would say he, and then he, he still wants respect. I think he still, he was still looking for respect that he wasn't getting there. Well,

Andrea: 47:37

didn't he like take her vocal cards out and put him in

Paul G: 47:42

like that? He did . It's crazy. So as, I guess you see crime killers like that in the UK as well, or England? Oh, I mean England, the uk. Which one, Sorry, I missed that one. Which one, should I say, England or uk? Uh,

Linda Sage: 48:05

the United England is England, Scotland, Wales, Northern island and legal system is different because England and Wales are together and Scotland So their laws are actually different to,

Paul G: 48:25

Sorry about the tangent.

Andrea: 48:26

I did not know that. I learned something. That's very interesting.

Linda Sage: 48:30

Yeah. Now, the, the, the, the Scottish, uh, judicial system is very different They

Paul G: 48:37

still don't draw on quarter people. That's all I could say. No,

Linda Sage: 48:41

not so much.

Andrea: 48:42

It's not brave. So would you say Scotland's, like is one of a more strict, or is A one tariff? Tariff. Tariff. I think of tariff is totally different. I'm, I'm learning something. So they

Linda Sage: 49:01

they still full life tariff? Yeah, they um, they, they still have it. Um, they don't have, they don't identify so much with the mental, Like, uh, for example, Ian Brady, he was, he was, um, So he was held under the mental health act as well as his. His life sentence for the murders. But um, when he went on hunger strike, because he was held under the mental Whereas if a prisoner went on hunger strike, they wouldn't be forcibly fed So at one point he was trying to get sent, cause he was Scottish, he was Whereas it obviously he didn't win it so he stayed in the UK prisons. So

Paul G: 50:06

system it, there's different types of serial killers. And, and this is what I was asking before I went off on the stupid That's what I do. Dumb stuff anyway. Um, we have, you know you've got different types of serial killers, right? You got the ones like Kemper who are killing because of an I, I forget the name of the, the English one that she, uh, equated Right. And then he's doing it for somewhat different reasons. Are there different levels, different types of serial killers?

Linda Sage: 50:48

They do act for different reasons. Uh, and they, they work in different ways because of like everybody else. So they have different needs, different desires. Um, some are, um, if you're talking about a sec, a sexual predator, then very often You know, a kill is actually, well, because I actually dunno You know, this is why when they're discarded. They're, they're in a shallow grave or they're just literally discarded Now they're search list to requirements. I mean, it's not to sound flippant, but this is sort of their, their mindset. But so they, they're grooming and their use of that for the, for a sexual act Um, so a sexual predator, they, they usually get more gratification from Then the killing. The killing is just a surplus because they actually don't know what to So it is just like so, so surplus. So that's where you get the body is discarded, um, very publicly You, you've just gone. Whereas if you've got somebody who's killing for and they enjoy the killing And a serial killer is a different mindset to a killer.

Paul G: 52:28

Really?

Linda Sage: 52:30

Because a killer, a, I personally think we Yes. At, at one point. You know, if all is, is a bit like open and are safe if all the clicks Do or you walk away and I think we've all been in situations where we've been Yeah. Um, I, I personally do think that we've, we've all got the capacity,

Paul G: 53:03

but we better have the capacity. Otherwise it's, our species is doomed, because animals will get us,

Linda Sage: 53:11

I mean, there are, there are people in prison that when you listen

Paul G: 53:23

that you belong in, doesn't. Yeah, well there's some guys in, what else did we do? Some guys in North Carolina, I think it was. And they just killed people cuz they wanted to and they fed 'em to their pigs And they kill people in front of other people and be like, And so everybody kept it on the down low and they just didn't care. They were just doing whatever they wanted. And it wasn't like a serial killer. It was these people got in their way or they wanted something from 'em. And I think that is a different mindset than serial killers cuz it was like

Linda Sage: 54:05

Yeah. And especially they're even for different reasons, maybe they're, they're scared if, Yeah. So again, you know, there, you're talking about a different. Ideology that, you know, and especially if this is something that's gone on Yeah.

Paul G: 54:29

They don't see what's wrong with it. Yeah.

Andrea: 54:31

This is a totally different question, but I'm curious. I'm a nurse and I always get slightly, um, I don't wanna say irritated, when So, for you, being the expert at what you do, do you ever get kind of upset certain TV shows or things like that that totally have it wrong based upon

Linda Sage: 54:59

Yeah. The, the thing I always say at the beginning of all, all my talks is, you A murder within 60 minutes or 90 minutes, you know, , just, That's true.

Paul G: 55:19

You would end up canceling the show 48 hours. Yeah, The first 48. Yeah. It's like they would have nothing then because you know, you see

Andrea: 55:27

people that like go on the internet and Google narcissism They're always wrong, aren't they? And they think like, you know, with, you know, the internet, Not everything on there is correct, but they feel like they're the expert

Paul G: 55:39

Everybody's a narcissist these days. Have you noticed Live

Andrea: 55:42

Well Today? Website.

Paul G: 55:43

So have you noticed that though? Everybody's an narcissist now. They label everyone an narciss.

Andrea: 55:49

That seems to be the thing here. Yeah,

Linda Sage: 55:51

yeah, yeah. I mean, society is getting more, much more egoistic. I don't know if you, you know, finding, we said earlier about, you know, how pe is a dying art that, you know, trying to get some, you have people to Even, even within professions, uh, it's quite difficult to actually get people in

Paul G: 56:20

each other. Well, and in American news culture, um, I, I did, uh, a stint in the Amer in for side yelling and screaming about something and as soon as someone else walks in and That's not wrong or degrading, but it's different. They immediately shut 'em down and call 'em names and turn 'em off. And it's not fair. And I think we're teaching people through our entertainment that Uh, and I, and I think that goes to when people think this We've, I, I felt for years that we've turned a corner and the subjugation And anyone that doesn't fit the pattern of whatever policy is going on now, we And we've, we're just doing the same things we're doing in the fifties is

Linda Sage: 57:38

Yeah. I, So society has changed. Um, I don't know. I say I can't speak for living there, but you know, definitely sort of Same here. You know, people, people, you know, What was, was it correct to, to be married Or is it better that now you, you know, you have the means to leave a family that has got three or four different fathers and, you know, does Yes, it does. You know, is so, are they all good moves forward or are they bad news? I'm, you know, I'm, I'm not, I'm playing devil's advocate here. I'm not saying that's better than the other, but, uh, where Absolutely no way in this world that one parent is as effective as two parents. I mean, my, my husband died when my daughter was 15, and I know that, you and, you know, we, we struggled for, for years because of, you know, LA losing, Yeah. And she, and she fell outta the wagon, you know, because one parent

Paul G: 59:01

Well, it's just, same as I, I agree with that. It doesn't matter if it's a man or woman. If you know you're a team and you're working on stuff that makes it so much you're doing, if there's a team of people that have the same goal in mind, it's so

Linda Sage: 59:23

I, I think the, we have a much, uh, lower. Tolerance threshold now, you know, we used to write letters and send a letter Right. And then they'd take couple days to, So then you get a letter back and we Now if you go on the internet and that little wheel's going around Oh my goodness. You know,

Paul G: 59:50

Why haven't you responded to my text? I sent it over a minute ago. Ah,. Linda Sage: And so our frustration You like really? Yeah. A phone call, like, Would never have even been considered. You know, I can remember the time that if we, we had family in Australia Christmas and special birthdays that all the family got round and made You know? Yeah. So talk for 10 minutes and it, you couldn't afford to talk for

Linda Sage: 1:00:32

Yeah. Yeah. Whereas now, you know, we are talking right across the world

Paul G: 1:00:37

but it does electricity. But Yeah. But yeah, and, and even five years ago, what we're doing Yeah. True. Yeah. There's no way that I could do this from a kitchen table out of a, out If even five years ago, tech didn't exist to be able to pull this. Um,

Linda Sage: 1:01:02

well, I, I disagree on that one cuz I was actually, um, I don't but he's part of the National Speaking Association and he was one of one of And I was in the Middle East and we were using Zoom. Now nobody else had heard the Zoom. Right, Right. But we, we were using Zoom because in Saudi they scramble Yeah. Um, they just pulled the plug at times. So, and Zoom because it was so insignificant, everybody Yeah. They didn't bother about it. So we were using Zoom to, to communicate like, like this. So it's one of the things I always wish I'd taken shares out in . Exactly. Yeah.

Paul G: 1:01:45

Well it's, I've got a, you know, I'm working off a board. We've got two high end microphones that, that really work. Really. They're production level microphones and it's, and I, I can put it in my And have a, have a high end production studio. All I need to do is add a camera, which since we don't record video But I, at my work, what I do for a living is I work for a company that we broadcast live 24 7 and five years ago you would had to buy a million It's crazy. So who knows what the future's gonna hold and it. But you're right, we we're, we're isolated but not isolated. And some, for some reason always seem to get as input these days is the high But you're talking to the person, you're growing, you're making a connection. And I, I guess it's just not as important to the cultures as it used to be.

Linda Sage: 1:03:04

But, but also, I mean the internet has been such an amazing led to underground networks of groups of people that before would find Yeah. That as easy. Their communications

Paul G: 1:03:25

too. Fred Pill, Black Pill Guys is one. They would, they didn't even have an organization before. Uh, before the internet and black pill, red pill guys are the people. The black pill guys are the worst. Uh, but they believe that men should forego even having a relationship with Uh, and it's not all like that. Some of the guys don't feel exactly that way, but that's the sentiment. You get out of it when you delve into it, it's just a touch.

Linda Sage: 1:03:56

Mm-hmm.. Yeah. And yeah. Especially with the, the sex offenders and Yeah. Hil about this, you know, we, we have a whole new world of possible offenses.

Paul G: 1:04:07

Well, and the trouble that it is too is somebody could hack your Yeah. And who knows if you actually did it or not and prove that. Good luck. Police departments don't have that kind of tech person sitting

Andrea: 1:04:25

That's scary if you think about it.. Linda Sage: Yeah. Oh yeah. I mean, you know, sort of, um, identification, fraud Yes. You know, there, there's lots of of money and valuing that.

Paul G: 1:04:39

Um, so is there, so you really haven't seen any demarcation They're, they're all, their motivations are all different but rooted,

Linda Sage: 1:05:08

Yeah. I mean, yeah. When you look at them, it goes across ages, it goes across intellect, it goes If it was, wouldn't it? Cause you could just have a blueprint. Like this is the person pinpoint them. This is, Yeah. But unfortunately they're not. And you, I, you talk about being in the medical field, we've had some horrific, Shipman and Beverly, you know, she was killing children. She's a nurse. Oh gosh. So

Paul G: 1:05:49

do you think there's a psychological ex, so a lot of times these days, they want you and they, they kind of outlawed this a But you go in and you'd have to take a psychological test What, was there any basis in that that was real? Or is, was it all just huckster stuff?

Linda Sage: 1:06:15

I think, you know, depending what they were looking for, uh, because If you've got a company that has a quick turnover in staff and they've got short They will climb the ladder very quickly. They'll get results and then move on. Uh, but if you've got a company that's looking at ethical, long term, uh,

Paul G: 1:06:57

Yeah. It's, And I

Linda Sage: 1:06:58

think, yeah, that's, that, that there's a lot of business You know, again, it, when you're looking in, in the care profession, So it's unlike, it's not as likely to get the, the psychopathic traits or

Paul G: 1:07:33

people. So if you find yourself faced with someone who you feel, who I, if I who I may feel meets the criteria to be totally deadly scared of and is Would I normally be right? Or would that be something that I'm don't know enough about it Right.

Linda Sage: 1:08:02

Normally your gut instincts are pretty spot on. It's when we don't listen to them, that becomes the instinct and they You know? So the thing is, at the end of the day, the value of yourself, if you've got a You know, if you can take it to up to bosses and talk to them. But if nothing's been done, the person that you need to be Because I think an awful lot of people have been in jobs. Too long or they've been in relationships too long, they've seen the writing on the bad and they've actually been there and had their health deteriorate before

Paul G: 1:09:03

All right. So is there, Andrea, is there any, uh, you got a list of questions? Anything we missed?

Andrea: 1:09:10

No, I guess for me it's like, bless you for trying to learn I don't know how you can keep it all straight, but I'm glad there's

Linda Sage: 1:09:24

I think it just comes with talk because there's so much in the, We all have, uh, idiosyncrasies, we all have, you know, And also, Um, put people on the, these spectrums when they don't deserve it or,

Paul G: 1:09:48

So we're running a little bit of video here. It's between, uh, our guest and, and us and we're over here laughing Wait, wait. Why aren't they laughing? We have a cat that will not shut up.. Andrea: I am so sorry.

Linda Sage: 1:10:05

Poor kitty.

Andrea: 1:10:08

He wants, he wants outside. So bad. Guess. Hang on. You guys keep talking. I'm gonna let

Paul G: 1:10:13

him out. So, yeah, we're cracking up because you're trying to talk about this serious subject You're not gonna catch him. Oh, you got him good. Throw him out, Get outta here, you butt head . Throw him out the door.. Sorry about that. So I could hear her, I could hear her watching the camera and I cuz little pauses every now and again. And I was like, I better just explain to her what's

Andrea: 1:10:44

happening. God love him. He's a sweet little cat and he likes to be outside and we've been, you know, trying

Paul G: 1:10:51

to like, it's like, are they laughing at me? Are I saying anything

Andrea: 1:10:53

funny? Hold down the fort. So it's like, cat stop or , this poor woman from England's, Linda Sage: you know,. Andrea: I am super excited to Where can

Paul G: 1:11:09

we find your books?

Linda Sage: 1:11:11

Uh, well on Amazon.

Paul G: 1:11:14

Is, do you sell directly off of your website? Because sometimes you, you make more money if you sell 'em directly off your website?

Linda Sage: 1:11:21

Uh, usually I do through Amazon because Yeah.

Paul G: 1:11:26

You don't have to deal

Andrea: 1:11:26

with it. Yeah. I don't blame you. But no, I'm, I was super excited when, um, Paul booked you, cuz I've always wanted because it's always been something that I wanted to get into my career a long time Nursing. I wanna know

Paul G: 1:11:44

more about the English serial killers now. I do too. I, There's no one out there do cover them on, I don't know, podcast. No.

Andrea: 1:11:51

I wanna like research some of these people and I just, I've always find Just for me, it'd be totally baffling to do half the stuff they've done, but just What happened? Cause I deal with kids in foster care here and um, I have this big thing So I'm always trying to make them feel safe and they can talk to me and try to

Paul G: 1:12:24

help her with this cuz I would just go find the parrot and So,

Andrea: 1:12:31

you know, for me it's always like, I don't wanna ever see that in And if I can be that stick to help them get better, it's, it's good for me. But I always wanna like look at the people that are, We we're taught to type personality traits to kind of tell the therapist so we can kind of So getting a chance to talk with you and learning about some of this

Linda Sage: 1:13:06

Ah, thank you. Now I've been super, I really enjoyed it and uh, maybe that's something we I put my podcast on hold. Uh, cause I did, I was doing one before Learning from Life. That's still about, but I haven't carried on with that. So I am starting looking at doing a new one. But, uh, yeah, Welcome to my world, which is all about serial killers, uh, So, well,

Paul G: 1:13:33

we really enjoy consuming it. It's just, we don't know. We, we've never, True crime can be tough because you have to know all It's, there's two or three different types of podcasts out I enjoy just sitting here talking to blabber about stuff So we just chose to go down there. We, we thought about true crime stuff, but it's like, I don't know Cause I gotta do all that research. I'm busy, you know? Yeah. Well

Andrea: 1:14:05

if you start a podcast, I'll definitely listen. Cause I love, definitely, I love this

Paul G: 1:14:08

stuff. It's, I can give you some advice on the equipment or something if you It's not that expensive anymore. It's actually gotten quite cheap, believe it or not. Happiness.

Linda Sage: 1:14:19

Yeah, that'd be great. I, I did have, I haven't bought it with me in Spain, but I have got, um, Mike and Yeah. Say I haven't, I haven't bought 'em with me here. Well,

Paul G: 1:14:31

and we're, you know, we're supposed to be doing video, but We do this cuz we're actually interested in what you're having Whatever we, That's not our plan. That's not what we're in it for. We, we, we are genuinely curious about what you guys got

Linda Sage: 1:14:49

That'd be great. I've really enjoyed it. I thank you very much for the opportunity. All right.

Paul G: 1:14:54

Um, so I have an interview coming up with. Um, Haley SGA is The Haley SGA was lost in the Ozark National No. Was a Buffalo National Forest, I think it was for 52 hours. And she and her father and I, we talk about the experience and it's gonna Um, but we got that coming up in our next podcast. And also, um, I haven't decided, which is, I'm gonna put first, am That's the detective. He was in auto crimes. Which one do you think is better, Andrea? Mm. I don't know. They're all interesting. Yeah, so I got the auto crime guy, which we're doing an interview on next week, Uh, that's in the, in the bag. I just gotta cut it up because I'm making something special out of it. And I, boy, I tell you, it's a couple of interesting podcasts I mean, I enjoy talking about this kind of stuff. The, uh, you know, the, the difference is know that we're all human and it We're all actually the same. And our stuff is always, you know, with our, our mental There are other people out there that have the same issues Yeah. And any of this actually. But I appreciate you being on, and I guess any more questions or anything

Linda Sage: 1:16:29

Yeah. Well thank you Paul. Andrea, I really enjoyed being with you and it's been great to So that's been really interesting. But yeah, I think that's a good point Andrea made as well, that about people there, but we like to make excuses for them and we like to sort of think, Oh, So if you think about it and act on the time, there may be some

Paul G: 1:17:05

save life. True might say

Linda Sage: 1:17:08

lives, I mean, you know, I know over there is a little bit It's not to say there's not already people out there already, they reckon in the states at any time and you know, it's three or four here at any time Yep. So you might be able to see that person, but you're ignoring the, uh, the traits. Mm-hmm.. Paul G: All right. Well, cool. And I appreciate it being on, and I guess, um, what do you think, Andrea?

Andrea: 1:17:45

I think we're good and I'm gonna, I guess if you, do you have a leave us with for the listeners who might wanna look up on some of your,

Linda Sage: 1:17:57

Everything for me is very simple, is in my name. So just Linda say. So if you're looking on LinkedIn or Facebook or website or Instagram

Paul G: 1:18:05

for our American audience, can you spell that for us?

Linda Sage: 1:18:08

It's just L I N D A S A G E. All

Andrea: 1:18:14

right. Sounds good. Thank you. I definitely will be looking you up.

Linda Sage: 1:18:16

Cool. I had, Thank you so much. All right,

Paul G: 1:18:20

well thanks everybody for listening and you. We've got a couple of good things coming up, so, uh, til then, bye

Linda Sage: 1:18:28

bye.