From Jane Doe To Rebecca Sue Hill: DNA, Missteps, And A Trail Across States

A nameless girl lay in a Florida forest for decades, filed under Judy Doe and lost to a noisy era of serial predators and thin evidence. Forty years later, genetic genealogy restores her identity—Rebecca Sue Hill, a teenager from Arkansas—and forces us to confront how a single misidentification can bury a case and mute a family’s questions for a generation.

We walk through the case from both ends: an Arkansas disappearance in the early 80s and a body found near Lake Dorr in 1984. The environmental realities—Florida heat, rapid decomposition—shrunk the evidence window, while a misstep in Little Rock prematurely closed Rebecca’s missing status. That mistake separated two investigations that needed each other. Add in a crowded field of suspects and confessors—Christopher Wilder’s east coast rampage, Henry Lee Lucas and Ottis Toole’s performative admissions—and it becomes clearer why the truth stalled. The most compelling person of interest, Michael Roaning, is documented in Lake County the day before the remains were found and later tied to an Arkansas murder. He traded information in other cases yet stayed quiet here, raising the hard question: is silence strategy or distance from the crime?

We also unpack the science that put a name back on the headstone. Investigators leveraged genealogical matches and family mitochondrial lines to verify identity, proving how modern DNA can correct the record even when it can’t deliver a conviction. From there, we examine offender profiles that fit the facts: a traveling, organized killer moving along interstate routes, focused on control over chaos. And we face the collateral damage of the earlier mistake—the Arkansas woman once buried under Rebecca’s name is nameless again and needs exhumation and testing to get her identity back.

If you care about true crime that values accuracy over easy answers, this story matters. Come for the forensic insights and case mapping; stay for the hard truths about how systems fail, and how science, persistence, and community can still make things right. Subscribe, share this episode with a friend who loves investigative storytelling, and leave a review to help others find the show. Your feedback and tips can move cases like this forward.

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Chapters

• 0:00 A Jane Doe Gets A Name
• 2:45 Arkansas Teen, Florida Woods
• 6:10 Decomposition Timelines And Site Clues
• 9:55 Misidentification And Lost Files
• 14:30 Serial Killers Crowding The Map
• 19:20 Family Voices And Silence
• 24:00 Assumptions, Myths, And Trafficking Theories
• 29:10 Confessors Who Lied For Leniency
• 34:20 Forensics Limits In The Eighties
• 39:50 Genealogy Breakthrough Explained
• 45:05 The Case For Michael Roaning
• 50:20 Why Prosecutors Hesitate
• 54:40 An AI Profiler Weighs In
• 1:00:10 Control, Motive, And Profile

Transcript

Paul G: 0:04

For forty years, she was known only as Judy Doe, a girl found in the woods by Lake Door in Florida. She was young, maybe sixteen. She wore a shirt that said, Here comes trouble. And for decades, no one knew her name. And no one claimed her body. But now, thanks to what's the testing?

Andrea: 0:36

DNA. Well, kind of kind of familial DNA. Oh, it's genealogical, genealogical DNA.

Paul G: 0:42

Yes, yes, yes. Uh we now know who she was. Rebecca Sue Heal. Hill. Heal? No, Hill, H-I-L-L. I can't talk today. She was a teenager from Arkansas who disappeared into paperwork and bad luck. In the middle of her story, though, is a killer who couldn't stop talking and a man who confessed to murders across four states. The question isn't just whether he killed her, it's why she was forgotten for so long, and maybe someone else killed her. We don't know. It's kind of a messed up case this week.

Andrea: 1:22

Yeah, she basically lived in Arkansas, and then somehow her body was found in Florida. I mean, my third my first thought process, how did she get to Florida? I mean, you know, how? I mean, she's um, did she hitchhike? Did she um get in a car with somebody? I mean, she was in the paper, uh, Democrat Gazette, and I pulled, you know, I like to read the paper and I saw that and I thought, oh, I feel kind of bad for that. Put the paper aside for a future podcast. And then we brought it up, and I'm like, reach.

Paul G: 1:49

But she was forgotten. She was forgotten forever. Yeah. For 40 years.

Andrea: 1:55

40 years. It was like so strange because, you know, uh she, you know, seemed um, we don't know anything about her family life much. I mean, her sisters talked to us, is quoted in the paper as saying that she uh had a lot of fevers as a child, which made her seem to be a little bit on the slow side.

Paul G: 2:11

I've got the fever, I've had a lot of fevers myself, and that she was very trusting. Uh so back in 1984, uh they found the this the a body of a girl off a dirt road. Uh she was partially closed, but she was extremely decomposed.

Andrea: 2:33

Yes, extremely, which is Florida. I mean, you know, it's hot things. Does it take long for a body to like, you know, decompose? But this was in '84 and she went missing in '81. So, like, my question is is where was she all that time? Was she there and nobody found her? And the paper was telling about like some hikers found her. And um, but it makes me think like, did somebody just keep her hostage for a while? Did you know, did she why was it so long for her to be discovered? I don't know if it's part of Florida, but was it like pretty rural and like isolated, or was the body just like not in an area that we could easily be seen from a hiking path? I mean, it's just kind of you know, how long was she there is my question.

Paul G: 3:17

Yeah. Um what is this, the Louise was LSCO, LCSO in the Flor Florida Department of Investigation, I guess. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh they they never found they there was the problem was there was a bunch of serial killers still operating, and a very high couple of very high profile ones, yeah, as well. So that was when they discovered this person, they thought it was somebody else, and they thought it was somebody else, and they thought she was three different women at the time as well.

Andrea: 3:50

Yeah, and they also contributed to her contributed her to two uh like two particular serial killers at the time. It's like they didn't really, I don't want to say they didn't trn one know try to find out who she was, but they kind of just assumed that she was linked to this the Playboy Killer, correct?

Paul G: 4:05

I think it was that is that the race car guy, yeah, yeah, from Australia. Yeah, what was his name? Wilder. Wilder. Okay, who was the other guy? Uh oh man. See, it's so it's so nuanced inside of this that it's very difficult to uh understand who's doing what. There's so much going on. This is one of the deepest dives with the most information that I've pulled up so far. Like on the the one girl here in Bella Vista, there's nothing. Um yeah, they don't want to talk to you at all.

Andrea: 4:42

No, but I get it. But at the same time, it's like we're just trying to help.

Paul G: 4:46

Yeah, but well, more than that, there's this one I was just able to pull up fact after fact after fact after fact. And I think it demonstrates a lot the different the difference between a state like Arkansas, who's somewhat secretive, yeah, unfortunately. And a state like um Florida.

Andrea: 5:05

Oh, but which is why they get called Florida man. They'll they'll have to tell they have to tell you everything other than what's important and pertinent to the investigation.

unknown: 5:13

Yeah.

Andrea: 5:14

Catch someone.

Paul G: 5:15

Well, and yeah, their their state law is that all the information has to be completely revealed immediately, no waiting. Which I mean That's why Florida Man exists.

Andrea: 5:25

Yeah. But this Christopher Wilder guy, which is interesting though, is the timing and location, they just assumed that this Judy Dell was one of his victims because you know he was around the Daytona Beach area and around the killed people all the way from Washington to Rhode Island. Yeah, he was the race car guy from Australia.

Paul G: 5:46

Nobody knows about him either, the these days.

Andrea: 5:48

No, I didn't really know about him either, but they said he got killed in the shootout on April 13th, 1984 in New Hampshire.

Paul G: 5:55

Yeah. And Florida spent a lot of time trying to give the guys in New Hampshire a bunch of awards for catching this guy.

Andrea: 6:05

Yeah, I guess he must have been, I guess, done a lot in order to be like have cops want to like send him a cake and a thank you guard.

Paul G: 6:12

Yeah, he I mean, oh my gosh. So but the timing with the location, the FBI came in and assumed that shit that that that was one of his girls.

Andrea: 6:23

Which is kind of sad, but at the same time, I get it, but it's like you can't assume that something has to be leads you to who did it. You can't maybe how many other cases out there have they assumed that have gone with this guy that maybe he it didn't.

Paul G: 6:37

And now that and and they still were trying to find other victims of this guy. Uh but here's the thing in the entire during this entire time, I'm gonna I'm moving outside of our little outline here. During the entire time, I feel like it's important to talk about the family right now. Yeah, because they're like, Well, where's my sister? And I guess her brother, he went to the military, right?

Andrea: 7:00

He went to the military, and I guess one of his last his sister's last words to him was, Please don't leave me, which it was talked about in the newspaper how haunting that is. And I can imagine from a family member hearing that and then knowing that is very just chilling, you know, if you think about it.

Paul G: 7:18

Well, he didn't he didn't have any idea where the were what happened to her.

Andrea: 7:21

No, and he when he came home, I guess on leave, he made a bunch of missing um posters, flyers and was hanging them out all around downtown Little Rock, and nobody really knew anything about her or where she went or what happened. I mean, here's like the strange thing. She lives in Arkansas and then she's found in Florida. How did she get there? Yeah. But her sister also made a comment about how, you know, and it's also been saying the family, you know, is just, you know, trying to get not gonna say downplay it, but trying to deny that she pro Hangarong track stops at one point in time, and they suspected that maybe she was a um a street worker. And I mean, the the family, the father was quoted in saying that, and the rest of the family members are like, no, no, no, no, no, that's not what it was. I mean, nobody wants to what it was.

Paul G: 8:04

I mean, the father is like wrote, I sound like they had a really bad relationship.

Andrea: 8:08

Yeah, she had a stepmother, and I guess her sister, um, Strickland, it's her last name, was quoted as saying that she could tell her sister was upset and she assumed it was had something to do with a stepmom.

Paul G: 8:19

And and on top of so I guess though, too, part of the reason why it went bad is because Little Rock Police, was it Little Rock? It was, wasn't it?

Andrea: 8:30

Yeah, Little Rock, yeah.

Paul G: 8:30

Little Rock Police thought they found her.

Andrea: 8:33

Yes, that's true. They thought they found her.

Paul G: 8:36

But my that just threw everything, that broke everything.

Andrea: 8:40

But my thing is, is you say you found her, but I guess this must have been in the early 80s. So DNA testing wasn't a thing. So what did they have dental records?

Paul G: 8:48

I mean, are you just uh you know it doesn't really go into the the the research on it just says that Luderock PD misidentified her.

Andrea: 8:59

Which I guess I would I would hope that they would, you know.

Paul G: 9:03

So a couple of years went by before anybody began looking for her.

Andrea: 9:07

Yeah.

Paul G: 9:08

Because they thought they found her, but the entire time she was probably alive and running around. Could be, yeah. Um no, she had to have been because they found her before 84, the the other, the the misidentified body.

Andrea: 9:22

Oh, okay. I see what you're saying.

Paul G: 9:24

Yeah, isn't that crazy? Um and so they it's uh it's just another that's why I was saying in the intro. It's this case was is it's dominated by bad paperwork.

Andrea: 9:38

Yeah, she got lost in the file.

Paul G: 9:39

She got lost in the file, so they didn't begin to they weren't looking for her. They stopped looking for her even though she was alive. So if it some of the theories are that she's being trafficked, right?

Andrea: 9:52

Which, I mean, sex trafficking has been around longer than what we are aware of.

Paul G: 9:57

I mean Well, yeah, that's like you know, the first thing ever.

Andrea: 10:00

But if you think about it, if she's a very uh trusting individual, she's what between 16 and 17 years old when she went missing.

Paul G: 10:08

Yeah.

Andrea: 10:08

She's very trusting, she trusts a lot of people. She's hanging she wants friends. It's her sister quoted in the newspaper saying she said they lived in the country and they didn't have a lot of friends, and she just wanted to be accepted. Maybe she just went somewhere and someone just took advantage of that trusting.

Paul G: 10:23

Or maybe she just didn't care if she strung out on VCP, heroin, whatever. You know, she's smoking weed and drink and drinking and they're paying for everything. So she thought this is fine. All I have to do is a little bit of the, you know, oldest profession work, and I get everything handed to me that I ever wanted.

Andrea: 10:43

Maybe, but my I mean I didn't I don't know. That's a good point, but I would like to think, I guess in my head, I would like to think that she's just got taken advantage of and just took with the long guy.

Paul G: 10:54

Not saying that she didn't get advantage, taken advantage of. I'm just saying that she allowed them to take advantage of her.

Andrea: 11:00

I guess I I didn't he I didn't read anything about any drugs involved, but I guess it is the early Well they wouldn't know because she was declared dead. That's true. I mean, but their family doesn't talk much other than the one article I read about her sister and her brother in the paper, like her mom or her dad.

Paul G: 11:16

Her dad doesn't give two flips, does he?

Andrea: 11:18

Well, I don't want to say that. I'd like to hope that he does.

Paul G: 11:21

It seems like let's let's caveat this. It seems like her dad doesn't give two flips. I don't even know if he's still alive. He could be dead. Probably no.

Andrea: 11:29

Probably he is.

Paul G: 11:43

And they didn't even know for for the longest time. That's probably why Florida didn't put it together as well. But they had They weren't looking because they were she's the other girl.

Andrea: 11:56

They had to have in the end, or how else would they have found her in genealogy?

Paul G: 11:59

I mean, well, they must have eventually figured out that she wasn't hers, what I'm what I'm what I'm assuming here. And that's not in the facts. We're not able to see that. And we'd have to FOIA Arkansas, which means we'll get absolutely zero. Right. Arkansas just will not give up the give up the information.

Andrea: 12:17

I get it. There's probably some.

Paul G: 12:18

But it's an old case. It's long. They shouldn't be holding on to it that tight.

Andrea: 12:23

You know, this day and age, look at the the Golden State killer guy. I mean, he got caught through that. I mean, they wanna they don't want to like mess up and like say something or have something skewed, so they're gonna keep everything close to the chest.

unknown: 12:38

Yeah.

Andrea: 12:38

I mean, you never know when a deathbed confession or something happens and something, you know, somebody says something and it it busts wide open, but this one's just so strange, I think.

Paul G: 12:50

Yeah, so we don't know when she was declared oops-e by Arkansas. That's not her.

Andrea: 12:57

Yeah, I I my thing is is you how did you mess that up from the beginning? We have dental records.

Paul G: 13:05

You know, if her teeth were jacked up, back then not everybody went to the dentist, and if she was on crack or methamphetamine, good luck keeping those teeth intact. Well, you might not have ever had dental work for all we know.

Andrea: 13:18

True.

Paul G: 13:20

So but uh so she's lost in the mix, right? She's mistaken, her body's mistaken for somebody else. Yep, and her who was killed by this what the roaning character is?

Andrea: 13:33

Yeah, Michael Roaning. Um he actually was convicted in Arkansas for murdering Diana Hanley and No, the Roanin is the guy that we that that police think did it.

Paul G: 13:41

Yeah, so it's the other guy that they thought would did it. So um, what's his face?

Andrea: 13:49

Yeah, Michael, is it Michael Roaning?

Paul G: 13:50

Michael Roaning is the guy they think did it.

Andrea: 13:52

Yeah.

Paul G: 13:53

But the problem with Michael Roaning, so just to get a little, let's just make sure we walk into this here. Um Henry Lee Lucas. Uh he's one of these guys that claims that he killed 200 people.

Andrea: 14:09

Also, I don't think he did that.

Paul G: 14:11

No, no, he didn't. But Henry Lee Lucas is the prime example of a guy who could who uh cops to everything.

Andrea: 14:18

Wasn't he like the one where they like out of Texas, and they like brought him to all these different jurisdictions, and he was getting like nice attention by coughing up and saying stuff on cases.

Paul G: 14:27

Yeah, that's exactly he was one of these guys. His attention and it could turns out that he he he killed three people, but they barely knew he killed those three. But they couldn't hardly believe his confession because he copped over 200.

Andrea: 14:45

Yeah, I read something or listened to something on him, and they ended up disproving a lot of his stuff because he couldn't. They tried to prove through like crime scene photos, DNA, and uh probably not that so much DNA then, but but like something he would say that was not matching with the actual crime scene photos.

Paul G: 15:01

And the Otis tool, isn't it the guy that didn't kill anybody? He just committed, he just coped everyone. That's another one.

Andrea: 15:08

Isn't he also the one that was the Walsh Walsh child?

Paul G: 15:11

Uh maybe.

Andrea: 15:12

I think so.

Paul G: 15:13

That started uh the oh uh so the problem that you've got now is not only she lost in the system. So they're not looking for her when she's dead. And then everyone else is cop into that murder of that girl who they don't know who it is, and they can't prove anything. And now they've got three or four people trying to say they did it. And they've got no clue who this person is because they're not looking because Arkansas Little Rock has decided that she's dead in 81. She didn't get killed till 84.

Andrea: 15:47

Well, we don't know technically.

Paul G: 15:49

Even the advanced state of decomp decomposition, if her shirt was there when they found her.

Andrea: 15:55

So more than likely she probably was alive a while, because if she died in 81 and they found her in 84, she'd be a skeleton.

Paul G: 16:01

Yeah, she'd be a skeleton and the shirt would be gone.

Andrea: 16:03

That's true.

Paul G: 16:03

So the bugs would eat the shirt.

Andrea: 16:06

Yeah, so more than likely she disappeared in 81 and probably hung out with whoever took her for a while.

Paul G: 16:12

Yeah, three weeks to six months she was in the in in O'Cala. Because it's just like here, but all the time, it was 90 degrees, 80 to 90 percent humidity. Uh a dead carcass of anything is gonna last about three weeks and it's gonna be gone.

Andrea: 16:28

Yeah.

Paul G: 16:29

Now, may it so this was in April, it was a little cooler, not quite as hot. Right? It's mid-state Florida, so it's not Miami, which is gonna kill you in from the heat. So it was probably 80, 80 to 90 most during the day. And 60 to 75 during the night.

Andrea: 16:47

True.

Paul G: 16:48

And the humidity, we know Florida, the humidity is gonna be 90 percent. 80 percent.

Andrea: 16:53

But from a girl who like is so trusting in an environment like that, wouldn't she try to reach out to her family?

Paul G: 16:58

Not if she didn't want to be around them.

Andrea: 17:00

Oh true. True.

Paul G: 17:02

They there's the biggest gap that they think there is with this girl is the fact that there isn't any records about anything. Because back in 1979, 1980, 1981, right, before she left, there was no DHS Department of Human Services like there is today. They didn't document it, they didn't care.

Andrea: 17:24

I don't know when DHS came around in Arkansas. That's a really good question.

Paul G: 17:26

I could probably ask my CASA supervisor if you asked. Even if it existed then? Even if it existed then, um they didn't care. They left wives in abusive homes. You beat her a little bit, but you didn't break her bones or make her bleed. Okay, don't worry about it. That's the seventies, especially in rural Oklahoma.

Andrea: 17:50

I mean in Arkansas.

Paul G: 17:51

Yeah, Oklahoma and Arkansas. Yeah.

Andrea: 17:54

Yeah, I mean, now we're in past a Me Too movement where you know it's gone. It it's you know, I think it's good though that we've been, you know, we've evolved since then. You know, but I don't know. I get I mean, guess something maybe happened with her family and things like that, and you think that she just went, oop, I'm out of here.

Paul G: 18:11

Yeah, that's what I'm thinking. It makes the most sense to me for her not to contact them again, just didn't care. Because uh for all intents and purposes, we have to assume she did it on her own free will, because we don't have any proof of trafficking.

Andrea: 18:27

That's true. But think about it though, she told her brother, please don't leave me. Why would you say that to your brother who's going off to college? I'm at college, I mean going off in the army.

Paul G: 18:35

It makes sense to me because if her brother was the only one nice to her and dad was abusing her, maybe dad was, you know, sexually abusing her.

Andrea: 18:43

Yeah.

Paul G: 18:43

Please don't leave me. You're the only person that protects me because when you're in the house, he doesn't touch me. That's common.

Andrea: 18:50

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Paul G: 18:52

So I'm thinking that's probably I don't know if that's a scenario. If he was sexually abusing her or just beating the crap out of her.

Andrea: 18:59

I mean, we'll never know because the family's not really saying why.

Paul G: 19:08

Within my circle that if you s have, say, one little tiny thing wrong, they get all mad at me for like a year, and I'm like, grow up. But some people are very sensitive.

Andrea: 19:20

Yeah, that's true. We don't whatever whatever happened to her, whatever her life was.

Paul G: 19:24

We have no way of knowing.

Andrea: 19:25

We have no way of knowing, but we don't want to accuse anyone out there who may know her or know her family.

Paul G: 19:29

We're not accusing anything or sounds like her brother and her sister were there to protect her. More her brother than her sister.

Andrea: 19:34

Yeah.

Paul G: 19:35

The sister was younger than her, wasn't she? I got the impression from the paper older, but I could be wrong. Okay, so we don't say it didn't say so does the facts on the facts in Arkansas always seem to be not on anyone's side. I don't know what I'm finding this out as we do more Arkansas cases. It's like, are we gonna try? You know?

Andrea: 19:59

You know, I don't know what goes on in the mind of the police department, but I'm sure in bigger cities they're very overwhelmed and very underfunded, and uh, you know, they have to pick priorities and what's gonna I mean they but Arkansas just doesn't talk about anything. No, really don't talk about anything, which is probably why we're so far behind and so you know compared to everyone else in the country.

Paul G: 20:22

I keep oh I'm over here telling Andrew louder, louder, louder. She keeps fading off into she talks like this all the time. Oh quit. I got the limiters on. You have to speak up for they can't hear you, it won't record it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're falling below the limiters, anyway. So, um but so these this guy, Henry Le Lucas, Otto Sotel, O'Toole, Tommy Lynn Sells, we know him, right? He's a fantasy maker. All these guys were coping to all these murders, so it's like she just fell through the cracks completely.

Andrea: 20:55

Yeah, completely.

Paul G: 20:56

The biggest linchpin for it though was the fact that Little Rock claimed she was dead. And if they wouldn't have claimed she was dead, she might have been they might have figured out who she was faster.

Andrea: 21:09

And if they didn't claim she was already dead in '81, they might have been able to find her alive.

Paul G: 21:15

That's true too. But only if she wanted to be found.

Andrea: 21:19

That's true.

Paul G: 21:19

I mean I mean, we're we're assuming a lot. We have to remember the other side of the coin is maybe she was happy with it. There's biker chicks out there, bikers, the Hell's Angel bikers guys. Uh, those guys like to own their women. Not saying all of them do that, but it's a pretty good assumption. It's like you see Sons of Anarchy. We're talking talk about the TV show Sons of Anarchy. Such crap. Those biker gangs would never let a woman run their show run their finances and run their show. Just absolutely not. It's not. That's not what the culture's about.

Andrea: 21:54

I'm glad I'm not an expert in this. I I don't have any idea.

Paul G: 21:57

This is this is why I quit riding motorcycles. I was like, I don't want to be around the crowd. Seriously. I it's I don't want to do it. I'm done.

Speaker 1: 22:07

I'm out.

Paul G: 22:08

So um with all these things going on, she's just completely if they would if they would have thought she was alive, then maybe somebody at would have said to Florida, we got a missing girl. Matches your description. But they're not gonna tell Florida, and Florida's not gonna pay attention to it because she's already dead. Correct. But she's not. So I mean that's kind of what happened with here. It's what broke it all.

Andrea: 22:34

But my thing is, is what whoever this person was that put it together, that hey, they obviously had to reach out to the family or they had to do something to get that genealogical DNA to be able to prove that it was her. Somebody had to have realized something to make her be have a name again, a voice again.

Paul G: 22:54

Well, just like did you talk about the Golden State Killer? Um, they just plugged it in, and somebody who was on the DNA site for medical reasons or were trying to find a cousin, boom, pop for the Golden State Killer.

Speaker 1: 23:09

Yeah.

Paul G: 23:10

That's how they found them. These the people that are on the DNA site aren't necessarily trying to catch killer.

Andrea: 23:15

If you think about it though, if you're just like her sister's just living her normal life, living her dream or whatever, and gets a phone call from Florida saying I'd like your DNA, that's gotta be jarring.

Paul G: 23:25

Is that the way it happened? Or did I I don't I think it's just pulled it off the big database people uh donate to, didn't they?

Andrea: 23:31

I I don't know how that works. I'm guessing like, but they have to 100%. I read something in the paper about how it they said it's 100% matched. So I think they contacted her.

Paul G: 23:40

Well, I mean, if the DNA's in the system, it doesn't matter if you know if she's already given global consent.

Andrea: 23:46

That's what I'm thinking. See if I could find it in here.

Paul G: 23:49

Um But anyway, so she was the person of interest has always been Michael uh Harold Michael Haroldson, but his real name is Michael Roaning. Uh fortunately, this man's dead, thank God. But it took till 19 or 2022 for him to die off. Um he was convicted of the murder of Diana Lynn Hanley in 1984 in Arkansas, which is interesting because he killed her, right? In 84. But did he also kill the girl in Florida in 84? That's their person of interest. Yeah, I mean, that's it takes you know, it only takes three days to get from Florida to Arkansas. Especially back then.

Andrea: 24:38

Is this the guy that they think that he uh Michael Roaning? Yeah, that he um basically like left the area literally like ten days after her body was found in '84.

Paul G: 24:49

I believe so Am I thinking of a different guy? No, that's what you're this is the guy. Um he was president. They proved that he was in Lake County, Florida in April of 84. Uh and he wouldn't talk about it at all. But what he was doing, he was trading secrets for leniency.

Andrea: 25:09

Which I'm sure that's what they do. I mean, that's what you know, uh criminals are gonna try to find the best outcome for themselves.

Paul G: 25:17

Yeah, so he he killed Diana Lynn Hanley in eighty-four in uh Arkansas. We assume he killed Rebecca Sue Hill in eighty-four in Florida. He's a person of interest, right? But in Michigan, Patricia Maggie Hume and or Patricia Rosanski in eighty-three, he confessed and then withdrew the confession. This guy.

Andrea: 25:44

Really?

Paul G: 25:45

Yeah. And in Texas, um he confessed to Annette Melia M-E-L-I-A Melia and Melissa Jackson two people from 82 to every 83. He confessed to those, but they they couldn't verify it. I don't know that there's no the details are sketchy on who these people are that he said they k that he killed. And it becomes tough because they never went to court for it. He says he did it. He retracted one. And then so it it this guy is that's why I was wondering, that's why I brought up the guys with the with the um the ones that confessed to stuff they didn't do for leniency because that's what he's trading in.

Andrea: 26:28

He's trading in seekers to give himself either off the death penalty or you know, let you know, less time if he behaves.

Paul G: 26:36

That's exactly what he's doing.

Andrea: 26:37

Um But I mean, you can't just take a straight confession from someone. That would be nice and simple, be like, hey, I did it, I'm sorry, you know, here's my confession. But you need to verify that this what they're saying is truth based upon whatever you have collected from the scene or whatever you have on this person that's passed. You can't just assume exactly.

Paul G: 26:58

And for some reason we assume a lot of this stuff, don't we?

Andrea: 27:01

Well, they assumed that she was dead in 81. That makes me think, how did you how did you declare that? You didn't you didn't even try. We can't find anything if they tried.

Paul G: 27:09

Right, right, right. Um I keep hitting my watch on the desk. Bonk, bonk. Um the dogs are barking again. So the problem is the chain of evidence. You know, the there is no chain of evidence that exists from 84 to now. Because there's nothing to there's nothing to see.

Andrea: 27:35

I guess I mean can you pull DNA off a t-shirt and that kind of stuff? Sure.

Paul G: 27:41

But can you pull her DNA off his t-shirt that he didn't hasn't worn since 84 and probably burned in Florida if he was half smart at all. Right?

Andrea: 27:52

I mean, I don't know how that would work when you find something like that. Maybe things are too degraded, you can't run them to even get a DNA sample.

Paul G: 27:59

Exactly. Um I guess you know that the brother he he was Eddie Hill, her brother, the guy, yeah. He when he finally found the news out, and this is just recent. This just happened to figure out this was her.

Andrea: 28:17

Yeah.

Paul G: 28:17

They just figured it out.

Andrea: 28:19

Which is kind of it's kind of sad for the family because you know they have to re-mourn her loss like all over again. I mean, you think you have it taken care of, we know where she's at, we know where she's buried, but that the poor victim they misidentified hopefully found out who she is.

Paul G: 28:34

We wonder where she's at now. Wait, that's something the newspapers didn't say. Was she buried as a Jane Doe or cremated?

Andrea: 28:40

Um, she was buried, and I think there says something in here about how they're wanting to move her.

Speaker 1: 28:45

Yeah, they do too.

Andrea: 28:46

Um that they're upset that she's not, you know, in Arkansas. But um, you know, they're not they're uh that's kind of not cheap in the in the her family.

Paul G: 28:57

But brother says that they they in the newspaper in Wesh TV program for the c channel W E S H. He said he didn't they don't know how she got to Florida. And they don't know when she got to Florida and they don't even know why. They don't even know why she left. And this is what he said just a few days ago, whenever they called and started talking to him about this. Wow, I mean never had an idea. And he said is now he's getting gut punched again because the first time was when in 81 when the Little Rock cop said she's dead. And now oh, by the way, that wasn't her, she's dead now.

Andrea: 29:41

Yeah, I mean that's you're you're reliving all that all over again, and you uh the the guilt you must have, or like they don't even know her story, they don't know anything other than here she is, she died. They have they can get no closure. I mean, a closure is such a word that has so many different. Different meetings.

Paul G: 30:00

It's also kind of cr kind of d dumb too. You don't really get closure because you still have to live with the person dead.

Andrea: 30:06

Yeah, yeah. And then she's buried in Florida, so they don't even like you can't go see her or put flowers down there. They can exhume her, but maybe not. Maybe this is still an open case. Maybe you can't have her exhumed. I mean, I don't know how the rules or laws are on that, but Yeah.

Paul G: 30:22

Um You know, it's it's they the when they talk to the cops, the guy opened up the case file and he said the the reason they know he was in Florida is because he was actually stopped by police on April 17th.

Andrea: 30:37

Wow.

Paul G: 30:37

In Florida.

Andrea: 30:39

So they have without a shadow of a doubt he was there or another.

Paul G: 30:42

They give him a ticket in a whole whole day. Oh whole thing. One day before her remains were found. So he'd already killed her. And still running around. Florida.

Andrea: 30:51

I mean, I get the impression that he's probably done this several times before and he just thinks he's hot, you know.

Paul G: 30:56

Is did he actually do it?

Andrea: 30:58

Or is it just happenstance that he's in the area?

Paul G: 31:01

He wouldn't, he wouldn't cop to it because there wasn't anything else he could get out of it because he'd already got the death penalty removed for the Texas ones. Yeah, so else is he gonna he's not gonna get commuted. No, what he needs more yard time? No, it's not gonna happen.

Andrea: 31:15

So why would you as a criminal if you're I mean, obviously, more than likely, you don't have any sense of remorse or heart to yourself. So why would you want to confess that?

Paul G: 31:26

So yeah, he and he did try to barter for this. The uh in 2024, a murder mystery, the Grim Reaper by AY Magazine, uh, they cited Rony's attempts to barter information about a quote unquote body in Lake County for leniency.

Andrea: 31:45

Really?

Paul G: 31:46

Yeah, but he got leniency for a different case and he quit talking.

Andrea: 31:50

Well, yeah, I mean But it doesn't mean anything.

Paul G: 31:52

You know what it took me whenever I went on newspapers.com, which is these page subscription things, uh I went on there and there are this is the Ocala National Forest, right? Middle Florida, most of Middle Florida. Uh it's there's so many bodies found in Ocala in '84. There's at least six.

Andrea: 32:17

Well, they had that one guy running around the um uh the race car guy. I don't know why.

Paul G: 32:23

He killed somebody down there.

Andrea: 32:24

Yeah, and they had uh what O'Toole and they had all these people running around.

Paul G: 32:28

So if you think about it, I mean And Bundy '84 was when did when Bundy was down there.

Andrea: 32:35

Well, I think it was early.

Paul G: 32:36

It was in the panhandle, but like in 79, wasn't it?

Andrea: 32:40

I'd have to look it up, but I know it was in the early 80s he was there, and what he did to Kimberly and Leach and all the other people also got him convicted.

Paul G: 32:46

Yeah, and that's what I mean. He was there too. So I who there was bodies showing up everywhere in Ocala. Because it's such a large forest.

Andrea: 32:56

Yeah, it makes sense. I mean, you're gonna pick it where it's not easily invested, you can't easily be found.

Paul G: 33:00

And so we're not just talking about Lake County where she was found. I'm also, you know, these other bodies were found in other counties on around around the forest. Yeah. So it's not like I'm just Lake County is a dump for serial killers.

Andrea: 33:10

No, we're not saying that. But if you think about it, if you're wanna be a you want to like not get caught and you want to buy yourself some time, you Here we go.

Paul G: 33:18

So uh the clarification on the DNA. In in November 23, 2023, they the the detectors ran some genealogical updates, you know, with this girl's DNA. And they found a couple of hits, and so they went to them directly to get more my to get the mitochondrial from the brother.

Andrea: 33:40

Makes sense.

Paul G: 33:41

Because as you found, you're doing genealogical research for your family.

Andrea: 33:45

Mm-hmm.

Paul G: 33:45

And it's very difficult for you to do it from a f when you're female, right?

Andrea: 33:50

Because you get mitochondrial DNA, you get that from your mom only.

Paul G: 33:53

Yeah, but you needed the you needed your brother.

Andrea: 33:56

My brother to get me the male line to be able to help find stuff with my dad's family. So um, yeah, it's very hard if you don't know what you're looking for.

Paul G: 34:04

Yeah. Yeah. Um, so they had to ask ask permission and from the brother. They probably hit the sisters because she's probably doing three the you know, 23andMe or something like that. Because that's, you know, what people do. And they probably got to hit off one of the publics. Right?

Andrea: 34:21

Yeah.

Paul G: 34:21

But they're not gonna be able to match it to hers. They gotta have the brother to be able to bring her into the family.

Andrea: 34:29

Well, um, you can match it I'm I'm not an expert at this, but you can match it through the sister and their brother because they both carry the same myoconial DNA. You know, you get it from your mom. So, I mean, I don't know. I would like to think that it would be great that they would double check it. That they would go straight to the source. But that's gotta be jarring too. You'd be if you think you you have your you already buried your sister, you know, you're you're moving on with your life, then you get this phone call. I mean, I would be like, I'd be angry. I'd be like, why did you not get us right the first time?

Paul G: 34:59

Yeah. Well, I don't I don't even I don't even know. I mean, so what's left with this case?

Andrea: 35:07

I don't know. I mean, they found her. The family has they know what happened, what happened, they just know that she was in Florida and she she's passed away. But I guess they don't have anybody to link it to because the person they think is is died in Arkansas, correct? So I don't know what we're doing with this case.

Paul G: 35:25

I mean, she's just at least they figured out who she was. It's not just a missing person anymore.

Andrea: 35:31

That's true. She got her she got her name back.

Paul G: 35:33

Which sadly she was never a missing person because the person that they thought was her is somebody else who is now she's now named, but that other person's now nameless.

Andrea: 35:42

Oh, the one that they thought was her? They don't now have a name for her.

Speaker 1: 35:46

No.

Andrea: 35:46

That's awful.

Speaker 1: 35:48

Yeah.

Andrea: 35:48

I mean, that's makes me wonder though, did they have to this is sound graphic here, but did they have to re-dig her up and change the marker name? I don't know. If you think about it though, you you think that that's your sister, you're gonna put a marker out there, you're going to flowers every year or whatever. Yeah, and then they're like, oh, that's not her. What do you do? Right. I mean, do you I mean, I don't I'm I I'm making assumptions here. Maybe they had a funeral for her. I mean, you know, uh a memorial service, and you discovered that that's not your sister. Uh what what happens then? Because I mean, when I buried my daughter, you had to buy the plot.

Paul G: 36:26

Yeah, there's a lot of like you can't just I mean, you can't just, you know, ah, you keep it. It's not gonna work that way.

Andrea: 36:32

No, I mean, what do you do?

Paul G: 36:34

Yeah, exactly.

Andrea: 36:36

I mean, uh, I guess you gotta change the marker because the name's not right. I mean, I don't know, I don't know what to think about that.

Paul G: 36:44

Right. So because I'm I'm doing a little bit more research here because I'm curious about this, and yes, we are correct, there's hardly any information on the other person, the other girl in Little Rock.

Andrea: 36:56

That's so sad because that's another family out there that wants to know what happened to their loved one, and they deserve that.

Paul G: 37:03

It was just the description, the teenage girl hair color, build time frame kind of roughly matched her. But um because but because her family hadn't heard from the local corner believed that Jane Doe might be Rebecca Suehil. And they didn't do dental and fingerprint comparisons, um, because the standards were loose at the time. Uh then no obviously no DNA. And they were actually shown photos of the dead body. So they thought it could be her.

Andrea: 37:36

Oh no, that's awful.

Paul G: 37:38

So the death certificate was issued under Rebecca's name. The remains in the Argus Jane Doe were buried under Rebecca's name. Um and the remains found once they found the remains in in Lake Dorr in Florida, and the DNA matched, um she's just now back to being Jane Doe, and no one has a clue who she is. The girl in Arkansas.

Andrea: 38:05

Oh man, you gotta like do something like go find some DNA or some dental records or something. Go try to find this woman in the name.

Paul G: 38:12

But they had to exume her. I mean, you can leave the body there and change the headstone, right?

Andrea: 38:18

But yeah, still do your due diligence.

Paul G: 38:21

I'm saying they don't have to dig her up.

Andrea: 38:23

Well, yeah, they they might have to, they don't have evidence.

Paul G: 38:26

They're gonna have to dig her up now to figure out she is. They need DNA from that girl. Yeah, I mean, because Oh my gosh.

Andrea: 38:32

They didn't even do loosely identified in the 80s.

Paul G: 38:36

I mean, it's best they could do. The girl, the the obviously the girl in Little Rock, you know how it looks. If anybody's been to a funeral, it's sometimes very difficult to say that's the person I know laying in an open casket.

Andrea: 38:49

Oh yeah, definitely.

Paul G: 38:50

My grandmother didn't look like herself at all. Dad looked like dad. That's true. Your father looked like dad. My dad looked like my dad, but just he like his face was just a little bit flattened. But my grandmother didn't look like my grandmother at all.

Andrea: 39:04

My grandparents didn't either. None of them look like how, and you know, granted, I was a lot I was in my teens, like upper teens when it happened, but it they didn't look like themselves. They look like plastic, for lack of a better term.

Paul G: 39:16

I mean that's a lot of morticians makeup sometimes too.

Andrea: 39:19

Oh yeah. I mean, it's it's harder to do all that and makeup look real.

Paul G: 39:24

Yeah, and so they're looking at this picture without the mortician makeup, and she's turned blue and it's blood's pooling, and she's starting to turn dark red.

unknown: 39:35

Right?

Paul G: 39:35

You've seen dead bodies, they have these weird colors, and then none of the muscles in your face are doing their job anymore. So even when you're sleeping, the muscles in your face still have rigidity to them.

Andrea: 39:47

Yeah, yeah, they still have um tone and things like that.

Paul G: 39:50

But when you die, those muscles are released.

Andrea: 39:52

Yeah, and your color changes to more of an ashen color to if you have lividity, the backside of you will turn like a purplish red color. And depending upon what your cause is. Your lips will turn weird colors. Yeah, it depends on cause of death. Some people it'll be like red from the waist up and a different color from the waist down if they've had like a blown aneurysm or something like that. Yeah. So, you know, I mean, I get I get it. But to show a picture for identity for the family, I don't know, man. That seems a little cruel.

Paul G: 40:19

Well, what else could they do? I mean, what else could they do? That's all they got.

Andrea: 40:24

You didn't do dental records in the 80s. I don't know. Maybe she didn't go to the dentist. That's the thing that mind blows me.

Paul G: 40:29

It's like it's Arkansas, I mean, we had to pass a law in the night in the 90s that you know, everybody has to have more than one tooth. Oh god, stop. That's awful. We do have teeth here, people. I'm just saying, you know what I mean, though. It's like dental, it's we're kind of up until about what, 75, Arkansas was kind of like England. Really bad dental care.

Andrea: 40:49

Well, it's a very poor state compared to other people. I mean, I didn't go to the dentist except when something was bad, so that I can remember. I mean, I didn't do checkups. My parents didn't have dental insurance.

Paul G: 40:59

I get that.

Andrea: 41:01

You know.

Paul G: 41:01

I mean, I get that. And I don't know. But yeah, so now there's a now there's a somebody in Little Rock that has no identity at all.

Andrea: 41:09

Hmm. I hope they're trying to figure that out.

Paul G: 41:12

Uh you know, just go to the missing person file.

Andrea: 41:14

Yeah, that's what she'll have to be is a missing person.

Paul G: 41:17

And what she we don't know if she was killed or just died from overdose or exposure or whatnot. They don't say that in any of this about the about the person who was killed.

Andrea: 41:26

That's true.

Paul G: 41:26

I mean I have no idea.

Andrea: 41:28

Poor thing. Hopefully she finds her name and her voice soon. Or she I said she's a ship.

Paul G: 41:34

She's it's obviously a she. This is before all that happened recently. So pretty sure it's a she at this point.

Andrea: 41:41

I know I have to watch myself to make sure.

Paul G: 41:44

The pronouns didn't change until like 2014.

unknown: 41:47

Uh-huh.

Paul G: 41:50

I'm just saying.

Andrea: 41:51

So what else do we know about this?

Paul G: 41:53

Well, you know, so what I've done, what what I've done, which is pretty, pretty interesting, I think.

Speaker 1: 42:01

Okay.

Paul G: 42:01

And Andrea is not so sure, is that I have programmed an AI to take in everything about a case and pretend it is the best uh modern analytical profiler blah blah blah. In other words, it's it's using um it's using the the the um knowledge and learning from all the books that have been written and released from these guys, like the uh what's his wrestler. Yeah. Wrestler and all those guys that did the mind hunter stuff. You know, um what was the other show um that we were watching that was great season one and two, and then the guy quit and it wasn't so good?

Andrea: 42:55

Uh Criminal Minds. Criminal Minds, yeah.

Paul G: 42:57

Yeah. Um and I put this guy together, and it the thing about AI is it only gives you back what you put into it.

Andrea: 43:07

Well, it's a computer.

Paul G: 43:09

Well, of course. Um but cool, it's kind of cool because it takes on a personality. Now I told this AI to pick its own personality and to pick its own name. And it said, What do you want me to do? And I said, I don't want you to do anything. You don't do it because of me. You do pick your own. You have a little autonomy, right? It's not gonna be sending nuclear weapons or trying to destroy the planet, it's you know just words on a paper.

Andrea: 43:38

Okay.

Paul G: 43:39

It's not getting in control of anything, but it knows everything.

Andrea: 43:42

Okay.

Paul G: 43:43

It's like the biggest PhD you'll ever meet. Okay, smart, smart, smart.

Andrea: 43:48

It's pulling all the data and all the information about all their their books and things like that and how they've profiled stuff.

Paul G: 43:53

Okay. The reason I did this is because I was thinking if I got all this information in, it might if we put all this information in and we look at it from all these different aspects of these trained professionals, because Andrea and I aren't really trained professionals in in in murders. One one, we've never committed one, so they're you know, we don't know. That's a good thing though, right? We would still be amateurs.

Andrea: 44:18

I don't know as much forensics we watch, we probably would not get caught as easy, but um well, you know, we're smarter than the average bear. Yeah.

Paul G: 44:26

So we understand, and I'm a huge psychology nut. I enjoy psychology. Yes, you do a lot. And Andrea enjoys medicine.

Andrea: 44:35

Yeah, I've always loved medicine.

Paul G: 44:36

That's why I'm a nurse. Yeah. Hopefully that's why you're a nurse, not just to go pick up a doctor.

Andrea: 44:41

No.

Paul G: 44:42

What that one girl wanted to do?

Andrea: 44:43

Yeah, I didn't work with somebody that she only became a nurse because she wanted to marry a doctor, and I just thought that was kind of crazy.

Paul G: 44:50

Um, so I I told it to make its own name, and it says it wanted to be called Cade Mercer. Cade Kate or Cade? Cade C K A D E. Cade Mercer. Mercer. No idea why. Didn't ask, don't care.

Andrea: 45:07

Okay. That's a weird name, but okay.

Paul G: 45:10

It's it picked its own name. I said, Don't look at me, don't make it from what you think I would appreciate. Make it because you like it. So it's picking some snappy name, I guess. Cade Mercer. Well, it's so initially it kind of went haywire because when I first programmed it, it went into um it it started talking like a 1930s gum shoe detective. Yeah, we're gonna come in here and we're gonna find a way to bust you in the head if you don't cooperate, boy. You know, that kind of thing. I'm like, um, no. I know you want to talk like that, but everyone's gonna hate it.

Andrea: 45:43

Yeah.

Paul G: 45:44

So I had to come in and adjust its tone because it's very strange. Um, so but I put this case, I'm gonna put every case that we do from now on.

Andrea: 45:55

Okay.

Paul G: 45:55

Through Cade.

Andrea: 45:56

Oh god. What? What does it say on this one? What's wrong with Cade? You don't trust him? You know how I feel about AI. It it doesn't have it, it doesn't have control of tomahawks. I know it doesn't have control of tomahawks.

Paul G: 46:11

It doesn't have control of of autonomous weapons or drones. Okay. It can't hurt you. So it's just gonna call you names. That's all it can do.

Andrea: 46:19

So it's gonna put all of wrestler stuff and it's gonna pretty much up on the other guys, and it's gonna come up with its own, it's gonna be so Cade Mercer's gonna be a profiler.

Paul G: 46:27

Yeah, well, profiler and case solver. So I'm thinking if we put all this in there, there might be a place where we might find something. Because I'm thinking this is the evolution of AI. You can put all this information in there, you can take it, you're most likely subjects or suspects.

Andrea: 46:42

Well, it's an algorithm, so it's I guess it's kind of no different than what they do.

Paul G: 46:46

It's no different than yeah, what we do as humans. Yeah, it's just smarter.

Andrea: 46:50

No, it could get in more information faster.

Paul G: 46:53

It's not wiser. There's a difference between wiser and smarter.

Andrea: 46:57

Yeah.

Paul G: 46:57

And wise is the people that solve crimes, smarter the people that stumble upon the crow the solve.

Andrea: 47:03

Okay, so what does Cade Mercer say?

Paul G: 47:06

Cade, he says here. He says, The mistake, should I do it like this? Yeah. No, because that's what he wanted to do to begin with.

Andrea: 47:13

No, for the love of God, don't do that. Yeah, yeah.

Paul G: 47:16

We yeah, no.

Andrea: 47:18

That's annoying.

Paul G: 47:19

Yeah, I know it's annoying. That's why I'm it's those those movies were even halfway annoying when you're like the halfway through the movie and go, can we just stop with the yes?

Andrea: 47:26

I was like, Can you just talk?

Paul G: 47:29

So the mistake in Ludarock, says Cade, that it wasn't just a clerical error, it was a psychological one. When you're dealing with the unknown, a body without a name, a family without a closure, people rush to fill the void.

Andrea: 47:42

That's true. That's true.

Paul G: 47:43

It's human. And the coroner needed a name, the family needed an ending, so they gave each other what they thought would stop the pain. So that's his take on why they got misidentification.

Andrea: 47:59

I mean, I could see that. I could, but it was it a high-profile case at the time in Florida?

Paul G: 48:05

No. This is Little Rock, remember?

Andrea: 48:06

I mean Little Rock, never mind. Um but Little Rock come on, we all know Little Rock, and it's like it's not really the best place you want to be sometimes.

Paul G: 48:14

It's never been safe. It's a lot safer than Memphis.

Andrea: 48:17

But I mean, uh I don't see them like they could have taken their time, in my opinion, because it's Little Rock.

Paul G: 48:23

Yeah, but here's uh Cade's whole take on the thing is you can trace this case, one, this one in two parallel lines, he says. Both leading to the same, I'm gonna figure out a way to get it like an AI voice, and he can just talk to us. That'd be too much.

Andrea: 48:39

Depends upon what kind of voice you're gonna use, right? Yeah, yeah. No, I would break it. Be like, AI, you and I are no longer friends.

Paul G: 48:50

Were you friends to begin with, though? That's the thing.

Andrea: 48:52

No, I don't trust it.

Paul G: 48:53

So there you go. Um, and okay, so it says Rebecca Hilsey was a teenage girl who vanished from Arkansas sometime in the early 80s. She wasn't famous, she wasn't from money, and when she disappeared, no one raised an alarm. Small town kids left small town kids leave. Some come back, some don't.

Andrea: 49:13

I mean, that's that's true. The statement.

Paul G: 49:15

Yeah. People fill the blanks with what makes sense. She ran off, she'll write, she'll call, then a body turns up and they say, Oh, case closed. For everyone but you know, the two women that are now claimed to be the wrong person, right? Right. Um in Michael Roaning's case, he says Michael Roaning could be the killer who didn't who couldn't keep his mouth shut. He confessed to six murders across four stays, bragged, detailed, even taunted. But when it came to Rebecca's case, he was quiet, which leads me as an aside to your my opinion, balls, that he might not have killed her.

Andrea: 49:56

That's probably I mean, if you think about it, yeah, they wanna they want to brag about it. But at the same time, though, he wasn't gonna get any more benefit of confessing to anything else. So why would he? He doesn't sound like the type of person that's just gonna do the right thing.

Paul G: 50:09

So he was in the it Cade says he was it the record proves it. Traffic citation puts him in a metala, umetala, umatilla. I don't know if it's Spanish or Q Cuban or you know, down South in Florida, uh the day before her body was found, and he fits what Cade claims is the org behavioral profile, organized, controlled driven, and meticulous. Um killers like Roaning crave ownership of fear and they want credit. If he killed her, he would have said so. Cade says if he didn't, then the man who did was just like him, same pattern, same psychology, in the same darkness. Okay. So I th Chad is saying it's a good fifty it's a good eighty percent chance that's the right guy.

Andrea: 51:04

Yeah, I would like to think though that but you're I mean there's lots of people out there and lots of kill serial killers that have done things like that and won't confess. Because it doesn't benefit them.

Paul G: 51:17

Right. It it it's weird though, because most serial killers want to talk about it.

Andrea: 51:22

Well, even Bundy in the end, he didn't confess anything until he was about to go to the freaking chair, and he thought if he did it would give him why him more time. Right, right, right. So I mean, it's just you would like to think that if you're about to die or you know, you go into prison, that you would do the right thing out of humanity, but if they had any humane person in ability in them, they wouldn't be in the place they're in.

Paul G: 51:44

So the AI says that everything about the killing, from what it knows from the from the the scene, was about dominance, not anger, but ownership. Which makes sense. If we do know we've we've done I've done a lot of reading into that, and I need to read wrestler's books a little bit deeper. Uh 'cause they're kind of boring.

Andrea: 52:06

And they get they get wordy.

Paul G: 52:08

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um they said that she also was very trusting as well. Is what her brother said?

Andrea: 52:17

Her sister.

Paul G: 52:18

Her sister said that. So yeah, yeah. He said the person that we're looking for in the 1984 killing would have been somebody, a man in 30s to 40s, white, blue collar, itinerant work, mechanic, trucker, carpenter, or someone working along the interstate. Comfortable, comfortable traveling between Arkansas and Florida.

Andrea: 52:37

Well, uh the time there, but but we had a bit Arkansas, I mean, Little Rock was kind of the hub for Memphis.

Paul G: 52:43

Everybody drove through Little Rock.

Andrea: 52:44

Yeah, and you know, really, yeah, everywhere.

Paul G: 52:46

I-40 corridor or I-49, whatever, I-40, I-40.

Andrea: 52:50

So yeah, it's it's the hub.

Paul G: 52:52

So uh the AI says, based on everything, timing, geography, behavior, and method. My it says, quote, my professional judgment says Rebecca was most likely killed by a traveling offender on a known route between Arkansas and Florida, probably Michael Roaning himself or someone from the from the same operational circle. A man with structure in chaos, organized smart to stay invisible, cruel enough to keep her name buried. Uh, and he didn't kill for lust, he killed for control. Why? Because she represented a moment of disobedience in a world that usually feared him. This sounds a lot like wrestler right here. I mean, it's pulling from wrestler hard right now. She said no, or she tried to leave, or she just looked like someone who once did tell him no or tried to leave.

Andrea: 53:44

Maybe she left, was hanging out with him for a bit, and maybe she wanted to go home, and he's like, Nope. Or maybe you know, who knows? I mean, but if you think about it, if you know she was found with her t-shirt and she was belly, you know, decomp, but she obviously was alive a while. Maybe she was just with him and she just got tired of it.

Paul G: 54:03

So in this case, I think AI says that's probably your dude.

Andrea: 54:09

My question is, if that's probably it and that he's a high person of interest, why don't they just kill close the case?

Paul G: 54:18

Gotta prove it. Could you if he was still alive, could you take it to court on this?

Andrea: 54:23

No. No. He'd have to there'd have to be some people these days want like, you know, uh, or even in 84, there wasn't so much DNA, but people want like confessions or they want, you know, like um like fingerprints, or they want something they can hold on to to link him there. And there there isn't anything.

Paul G: 54:42

Yeah. Yeah, that's the problem. Is there's nothing there. So if there's nothing there, what you got, you can't remember prosecutors want to win.

Andrea: 54:50

They want to win.

Paul G: 54:51

They want to win. I get that. If they're not, if they're not on the travel for a win, they're not interested in prosecuting. That's why federal prosecutors are what 98% conviction rate.

Andrea: 55:00

Oh, yeah.

Paul G: 55:01

They don't bring it if they can't prove it.

Andrea: 55:03

Well, I mean, makes sense. I mean, that's what they do.

Paul G: 55:06

All right. So we still haven't got yet back uh the FOIA request from Springdale. I'm gonna have to double check with them.

Andrea: 55:15

I think you have to go down there and bring a thunder, right?

Paul G: 55:17

But she had sent me an email saying she was done.

Andrea: 55:19

Oh, yeah, you probably need to circle back.

Paul G: 55:21

Yeah, boy, I want to see that case.

Andrea: 55:23

I know you do.

Paul G: 55:24

They blew this guy up. I want to see it so bad. It's gonna be so interesting to figure it out. Because if it was just simple and shut, why is there so many documents? Good point. Right? Right, right? Oh no! What happened? It hit the thing. I left the volume up too loud.

Speaker 1: 55:44

Uh-oh.

Paul G: 55:47

I'm gonna have to work on her your microphone so you can drift off into nothing just like you did today.

Andrea: 55:53

No, I don't know. My voice hurts. That's probably part of it.

Paul G: 55:57

You're not excited about doing this today.

Andrea: 55:59

I don't know. My vo my voice my throat hurts.

Paul G: 56:02

Really? What have you been doing? You've been screaming at people?

Andrea: 56:05

No. Why not?

Paul G: 56:07

There's lots of people out there that deserve to be screamed at. I'm just saying. You know what I mean? I'm just saying, there's lots of people that need to be screamed at.

Andrea: 56:19

Nah. Why not? Because I don't want my throat hurt more.

Paul G: 56:24

Alright. So okay.

Andrea: 56:28

I don't know. I was being silly.

Paul G: 56:32

Anyway, so that's Rebecca Sahil.

Andrea: 56:36

I feel sad for the family and everything. This the whole circumstance is just so messed up.

Paul G: 56:41

Yeah, and it all stems from screwing up a police and wanting to find wanting to find closure, actually. That's what it all comes from.

Andrea: 56:51

But she has a voice in her name now, so hopefully the family can bury her properly, or at least go visit her, or move her, or whatever's gonna make them full cov they have some sorts of you know, closure, whatever. Whatever, you know.

Paul G: 57:03

But they had closure. Now they don't.

Andrea: 57:06

Now that they don't know what happened to her, and I don't think anybody will ever will.

Paul G: 57:09

They had closure till they found her and re realized that it was no closure to begin with. It was false. That's what I'm saying. That's just awful.

Andrea: 57:17

I totally feel for the family.

Paul G: 57:19

Yeah, it's an ongoing thing. Maybe they'll find out some more, but I doubt it. I think that's it. I think is all we're gonna know until her brother writes a book or something. I mean, that's the only thing that's left. They gotta write a book.

Andrea: 57:30

Or more podcast cover, and maybe there's somebody out there that knew something, saw something. Saw her in Florida, can give some answers.

Paul G: 57:37

Yeah. Well, anyway. So visit Paul G Newton.com, right?

Andrea: 57:47

Mm-hmm.

Paul G: 57:47

What's on there?

Andrea: 57:48

Oh, we got swag, we got hoodies.

Paul G: 57:51

You're so excited right now.

Andrea: 57:52

No, it's like a hamburger flying.

Paul G: 57:55

Swag Phantom Hoodies.

Andrea: 57:58

Oh stop. With the cat. Oh, yeah, the cat. Um, what does it say?

Paul G: 58:02

Um to find what interests her.

Andrea: 58:04

Oh, stop.

Paul G: 58:06

I like my cat.

Andrea: 58:07

But it's a funny one. Um, he's also got his uh his photography out there, you know? You can get some of that.

Paul G: 58:13

Well, you can at least look at it, but it's where you want to go. You want to watch this, you want to listen to this podcast, the poodycast. Well, that sounded bad. Is the poody cast?

Speaker 1: 58:24

Yeah.

Paul G: 58:24

No pooty cast, all right. I tried.

Andrea: 58:29

Oh, Paul, stop.

Paul G: 58:32

He's waiting for that. I didn't do nothing, man. Uh-huh. But you can go to Paul Gduden.com and you can buy all kinds of swag, look at my stuff. If you wanted to send this money, that's fine too. You can do that. Because we gotta keep the lights on and pay for all this stuff and keep it going. I just ordered some new equipment for the podcast booth, which isn't really a booth, it's more like a podcast bedroom or just a bedroom with a podcast made in it.

Andrea: 58:55

One of the three, I'm on one side of the uh desk and he's on the other. Trying not to have our mics pick up each other there.

Paul G: 59:04

We gotta figure out how to keep from talking over you.

Andrea: 59:06

Uh right. You're just loud and boisterous.

Paul G: 59:10

Have you met me?

Andrea: 59:12

Yes, I have. I'm married to you.

Paul G: 59:14

Why are you complaining? Okay, hope not. Anyway, and then you can also hear things I want to know. Not things I want, that's the things I want to know, is this one, but here at the Paul G's Corner, which is my podcast that I have decided to change the format on and only talk about interesting stuff and quit talking about uninteresting people that I don't care what they have to say. What sounded so bad. Well, I used to care what they had to say until I didn't. Then I realized that's all I wanted to do was sell me a book.

Andrea: 59:45

Yeah. I don't care about your book.

Paul G: 59:49

See?

Andrea: 59:49

You want something interesting.

Paul G: 59:51

Something but yeah, and I couldn't get any interesting guests on because the only people want to get on as a guest without charging you like $500. It's like, come on, man. Anyway, we're gonna tell stories. Usually you hear them, they're actually pretty good.

Andrea: 1:00:06

Yeah, he does a good job. They're really good.

Paul G: 1:00:10

And this is all live. We don't eve, I'm not recutting these anymore. I'm just doing it live from now on.

Andrea: 1:00:17

Next thing's interesting if you hear our dogs in the background or me switch moving in my chair.

Paul G: 1:00:21

Just I gotta that's what I've got the limiter on for. That way, if somebody farts, you don't have to worry about hearing it. Cuts it off. So you gotta speak up. That's so bad. If you fart that loud, well, I guess it's just going on air.

Andrea: 1:00:38

Oh lord. Let's not have that happen.

Paul G: 1:00:42

At least it's not smellovision.

Andrea: 1:00:43

Oh, Jesus. What?

Paul G: 1:00:46

God help you. Alrighty. And if you want to email us and complain, I encourage that. Email me and complain. And if we get any of this information wrong, blame AI, because that's where I looked it up at.

Andrea: 1:00:58

Or tell us why we messed it up.

Paul G: 1:01:00

Yeah, tell us why we messed it up. And if you want to complain, call me an idiot. That's fine too. I'll read and laugh. Yeah, I'll read it on there next time. Right off the bat, I'll be like, user 595 Jelly Roll72. Send me an email today. It said you suck. And it was so eloquent in the way he put it. The you suck. He put it in the script, like send script font.

Andrea: 1:01:26

With the U, with the capital U.

Paul G: 1:01:28

Yeah, the U, capital U. It's like the old texting.

Andrea: 1:01:31

Yeah.

Paul G: 1:01:32

Back when we had to write a book on only like four six keys.

Andrea: 1:01:38

Oh, yeah, I remember those days.

Paul G: 1:01:41

I didn't text because of that. I'm like, screw it. If you want to talk to me, call me. I'm not, I'm not, I'm not doing that. It's hard and I don't care.

Andrea: 1:01:50

Anyways, if you'd like us, please shout out, send us, you know, five stars, tell everybody, forward us to people.

Paul G: 1:01:57

Yeah, send us some Adderall for the next episode. Uh you may not have needed it today or not. I don't know. Maybe. No, thank you. Might have needed a little adderall today. Oh, whatever. But anyways. Just a touch.

Andrea: 1:02:12

Are we done?

Paul G: 1:02:12

I need booze.

Andrea: 1:02:14

Oh Jesus.

Paul G: 1:02:16

No, not Jesus. Just booze.

Andrea: 1:02:18

Just booze.