A Broken Brain, A Violent Trail Across Wartime Arkansas. Red Hall, the killer History overlooked

Paul G and Andrea trace the violent trail of James “Red” Hall across wartime Arkansas, where a hellfire upbringing and a childhood head injury twisted a drifter into a man who turned small moments into real-life dead ends. A .38 revolver ties the bodies together. The chaos of World War II gives him cover. And Arkansas rushes him from confession to Old Sparky before most people even know who he is.

They follow the disappearance of Faye after a night out in Little Rock, the motorists who picked up the wrong hitchhiker, and the ballistics that stitched Hall’s spree together. From Stuttgart’s glider base to the thin police records of the 1940s, Paul and Andrea break down how a man like this drifted through the state unseen until his execution and the eerie death mask that lingered for decades.

It’s the kind of story Arkansas forgets — until someone finally tells it.

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Chapters

• 0:00 Setting The Stage: Wartime Arkansas
• 2:45 Red Hall’s Upbringing And Head Injury
• 8:30 Hitchhiking America And Murky Marriages
• 15:40 The Disappearance And Murder Of Faye
• 23:30 Army Airfield, Gliders, And Opportunity
• 29:45 Confirmed Victims And Ballistics Links
• 39:20 Arrest, Confessions, And Trial
• 45:10 Old Sparky, Death Masks, And Legacy
• 53:30 Modern Reflections And Closing Banter

Transcript

Paul G: 0:00

In today's Things I Wanna Know, we talk about a man who wasn't the kind of killer legends grow around. He was just a red-haired Arkansas drifter with a broken brain and a bad temper. And while the world was bleeding out of the final moments of World War II, Arkansas had its own quiet war going on on the backroads. This is the real life story of Red Hall.

Intro Music: 0:25

I need to know everything. Who in the what in the where I need everything? Trust me, I hear what you're saying, but I like it's new what you're telling me. I'm curious, George. I hop in the post is five and I'm hoping.

Andrea: 0:39

Hello, everybody. I get to take a turn this time. Taking a turn. We're gonna talk about James Weyburn Hall. We're gonna call it Red. He was known as Red because he had red hair. Supposedly we would say that he's a serial killer slash spree killer because he has four confirmed kills, but he pretty much has been confessed to like 24, but there's no like, you know, I guess evidence to prove this other than what he's saying. But this takes place around the end of World War II, when everything is like crazy, I guess you could say, throughout the world, and everyone's he kind of got lost in the shuffle, I think, because yeah. I mean, everyone's like worried about their GI people and you know, like what's going on, and are we gonna win the war? And he just kind of slips in and does his thing.

Paul G: 1:29

Yeah, this is down the street from my grandparents' house.

Andrea: 1:32

Yeah, which is crazy.

Paul G: 1:33

So not down the street, he's probably about 10 miles out of town, maybe.

Andrea: 1:36

Yes, five, yes, it's close. So this is gonna take place like between Little Rock and Stuckart. He supposedly likes to hitch on trains and goes anywhere from Kansas to Arizona to Texas to everywhere.

Paul G: 1:48

But it starts way back in the day. Was it Ford Ice? Was it where he was from? Where was he from?

Andrea: 1:54

Uh, I think something like that. Yeah, I'm trying to remember. But he was born January 20th, 1921, to parents Samuel, Jerome Hall, and Eva. And according to the their niece, the dad, uh, we'll call him Samuel, was a preacher with horns.

Paul G: 2:11

The horny preacher.

Andrea: 2:13

Basically, no, I'm not going there. No, it was nothing like that. I guess this was like, you know, 1920s, 1930s, you know, things that were happening.

Paul G: 2:22

He might have been a horny preacher. I don't know.

Andrea: 2:24

Uh I don't even want to go there. What? That's funny though, but no, this guy was kind of like fire and brimstone, you know, crime, basically like punishment. He believed in like, you know, can't be sin, but you know, basically called a lay preacher, but I read it like in the paper, like they called him reverend.

Paul G: 2:42

So I don't know if he had a congregation or not, but a couple times in the paper, he you know, you don't get to be a reverend if you don't have uh following.

Andrea: 2:49

I mean, well, when hope, but they called him a lay preacher from what I can get. And um, hellfire preaching, strict moral codes, constant talk of sin and punishment.

Paul G: 2:57

We went through that this morning.

Andrea: 3:02

But this guy liked to control every aspect of his kids' life, and um uh Red had like nine other siblings somewhere in the mix.

Paul G: 3:09

He was they had ten total, and they were doing the basic farm stuff, you know, taking care of the chickens, yeah, all these cows, and they were out, you know, they'd go out and and bail hay and all that good stuff, you know.

Andrea: 3:23

And he had um very much his parent, his dad was involved in everything from like chores to church to every aspect of their kids' lives he was in control of. And I don't know if that's a common thing. Yeah, it was really common from the 30s, kind of like, but anything I've read, I we'll quote a book in the show notes. It's uh the Arkansas Hitchhiker Killer from Janie Nesbitt Jones. I actually got this book. It was funny I got this book because we went into Barnes and Noble in La Rock when my daughter was graduating, and I asked the lady, I was like, What's Arkansas True Crime? And she pulls a book off the shelf and hands it to me. And I was like, I don't know anything about this guy. So I read it. It was a really kind of interesting book because it I didn't even hear about nobody knows about this guy.

Paul G: 4:04

Well, they know enough of enough about him to write a book.

Andrea: 4:08

Yeah, but there's some interesting things as we'll get into it about um what all he did. But basically he had Red had an eighth grade education, which I guess was pretty well back up just a second.

Paul G: 4:18

Red has an eighth grade education because he quit school. Oh, yeah, I'm getting there. Well, no, I mean the timeline's all goofed up. Do you I I don't know. I I have a timeline in my head of A, B, C, D, E, F.

Andrea: 4:33

Yeah.

Paul G: 4:35

There's our dogs, everybody. I don't think they can hear them actually. I got the limiters on.

Andrea: 4:39

But um basically, um, during his he was a quiet kind of, you know, pay did his chores, did what his dad asked. He was a good boy up until some things happened to him when he turned 12. He got struck in the head basically by a pole used while baling hay. Whopped. Being must be hard.

Paul G: 4:59

Well, it was this long pole that people used to use to, and we're not talking about the giant circle hay that you see today. We get these big giant bales of circle hay. Yeah, I remember those things weigh probably two tons. Yeah, they look like they're not light at all. But yeah, back in the day they would make their hay a little differently. They had you could do the traditional hay that you saw on all your Thanksgiving things, yeah. The light where it's all kind of bundled up and into like uh an hourglass, half an hourglass kind of thing.

Andrea: 5:32

Yeah.

Paul G: 5:33

And then you also had the square bells of hay. Now the square bells of hay were mostly machine, but they weren't really and so who knows which kind they were using, but because I don't I only know the machine hay.

Andrea: 5:48

Yeah, I don't even know what that would how they did that back in the 30s.

Paul G: 5:52

But you had to have this big pole to get it going.

Andrea: 5:54

Yeah.

Paul G: 5:55

And this big giant wooden pole with the piece of metal on the end doesn't know whacked with it.

Andrea: 6:00

Yeah, and the interesting thing about that is his family said that he was never the same after that.

Paul G: 6:05

Yeah, it's may uh I think because he got whacked in his attitude afterwards, his uh front part of his brain got damaged.

Andrea: 6:14

Probably, but they said after the accident he was like skipping school, he was running away from home, he was doing petty juvenile crime where he'd like to steal money from people and steal food. You know, his family just basically said he wasn't quite right.

Paul G: 6:27

And his dad, of course, is a preacher. And who was going to whoop his ass if he's acting up?

Andrea: 6:34

Yeah, so it was like they were having this constant fight and battle, and he would just, you know, skip school, his dad get mad, probably beat him, and then he would just like just disappear and then come back and hitchhike all over Arkansas and in various places, which I can't imagine like a 12, 13, 14-year-old hitchhiking.

Paul G: 6:49

But I think then it was common.

Andrea: 6:51

I yeah, that's hard for me. That's mind-blowing to me still.

Paul G: 6:53

Yeah, it's just, you know, I mean, you gotta remember if you go back to the 30 years before, you know, school was optional.

Andrea: 7:02

Yeah, I guess eighth grade education was like even in the Northeast, school was optional.

Paul G: 7:07

Because in 1912, they were still letting those kids they put those kids to work selling newspapers and working in fish places where in the cotton places and things like that where little hands needed they needed people with little hands to do stuff. So they were putting children to work at 10, 11, 12.

Andrea: 7:25

Which is why we have child labor laws now.

Paul G: 7:27

Child labor laws weren't around before that. No, but 1910s. But right in that era.

Andrea: 7:32

But I guess it was like pretty common for parents to basically whoop your kid or beat your kid. Now like days that's very frowned upon.

Paul G: 7:44

I think we should bring some of it back, not all of it, just you know, a little.

Andrea: 7:47

Just don't beat them where they turn psycho, but you know.

Paul G: 7:50

Yeah, but sometimes, you know, just saying.

Andrea: 7:55

Well, there's I mean, another part of the story that I find very conflicting is the book I read said that he's been married twice. Now, anything else I can find otherwise can't prove that. So this is a very gray area.

Paul G: 8:06

So we're thinking this guy ended up being a habitual liar.

Andrea: 8:11

Yeah, he did. But the girl that they first found, her name is Wacy W A L C I E. How do you pronounce that? And he met her, he thought she was lovely, you know, she was young, he'd flirt with her and that kind of stuff, and she was very, very young and gets married to him. And everything is. That's this the one that we know for we can confirm as a wife, but this book said he was married prior. So I don't really know, I can't find anything on this. But at the end of this book, it does talk about a little bit of credence to this first wife by the fact that she's buried not far from where Red ends up being buried, and they have an unborn child with the last name, Hall. So I don't know. I I I would think for Wacy's, we'll call her yeah, Wacy will call her Wacy.

Paul G: 8:59

That's the first wife.

Andrea: 9:00

Yeah, I would think that after she finds out what he does, that she probably doesn't want to be known.

Paul G: 9:05

She probably didn't well, what think about it.

Andrea: 9:07

How would you want to be known to be the first wife of this guy in the 40s in Arkansas that kills everybody? That's what I'm getting at.

Paul G: 9:12

I see, I see, because she didn't he didn't kill her.

Andrea: 9:15

No, he didn't kill her, which I don't know. I mean, basically they get married, everything's great. She tries to be a great wife.

Paul G: 9:21

She's never great.

Andrea: 9:22

Or I'm just never great. I can't find anything in there that he beat her or anything that that's not.

Paul G: 9:27

It also could just be a big lie by red.

Andrea: 9:30

True. I mean, we don't know. That's what I'm saying. This is kind of what the book says, but I'm just kind of going by what I I can't substantiate this, but we're just gonna talk about it because it's part of the story. But anyways, they um he would just one day he came in and say, I'll be back in a few minutes, and then disappears for weeks on end. Just disappears.

Paul G: 9:49

Well, she might not have been that pretty.

Andrea: 9:51

I don't have a picture of her, so I don't know.

Paul G: 9:53

Never mind.

Andrea: 9:53

Well, and then she was I'm a little bit contankerous today.

Paul G: 9:57

We went to uh church service this morning that almost put me out.

Andrea: 10:02

Oh it's true. It did not put you out.

Paul G: 10:05

We were like wake up in the middle of it.

Andrea: 10:07

Well, I think that's common for most people in church.

Paul G: 10:11

You're just like I'm trying to get you to banter here, and you're not doing it.

Andrea: 10:17

I don't think it was that bad.

Paul G: 10:18

Okay.

Andrea: 10:19

That's why I'm going, I don't know what your problem is.

Paul G: 10:21

You were waiting, you were poking me in the leg going, don't fall asleep, don't fall asleep.

Andrea: 10:27

I had this thing where I could just picture you like falling asleep and like falling in the aisle. And like everybody's heads turning around, I'll be like, Oh no.

Paul G: 10:33

Sorry, I was just so enthralled with it that I passed out.

Andrea: 10:38

Gosh. And we had a uh guest pastor today, so that would have been real well.

Paul G: 10:43

Yeah. So he had to, he was I'm still I'm still tore up over that because I'm like, I'm trying to wake up, man.

Andrea: 10:51

Drink your energy drink, you'll be fine.

Paul G: 10:54

Yes, mother.

Andrea: 10:57

So basically they're married. He just wanders off, sends her a postcard, says, I'm doing fine, honey. I'll see you soon. How do we know that? It says it mentions in here that there's a postcard.

Paul G: 11:07

But if no one can confirm he was actually married, is the book right? We don't. I mean, who told the person that wrote the book that?

Andrea: 11:15

I I she's got references in the back, and I didn't honestly look at them, but like anything in the 20s and 30s, I don't think the best record keeping was ever available.

Paul G: 11:25

Nobody cared.

Andrea: 11:27

Nobody really cared. I mean, nobody would thought we'd be talking about this guy in 2025. But so basically, Wellsie gets well, she gets tired of this crap, for lack of a better term, and basically just goes, uh we need to, you know, we need to talk about this. And he just decides, oh, let's get a divorce.

Paul G: 11:44

But there there's no record that they ever were married in any of the records.

Andrea: 11:48

I know, but for the sake of the podcast, I'm just mentioning this. Okay.

Paul G: 11:53

Well, you know, we're trying to keep the facts, the facts.

Andrea: 11:55

Well, I just really bring it up because I find it interesting because basically while they were married, they did have a child. Um, if they were still born, and it was in breach position. She had a difficult childbirth, and the baby was still born. And I guess not long after that baby was born, Red just decided to go wander off again.

Paul G: 12:13

Yeah. Might as well.

Andrea: 12:15

So she, this lady, Wilsie, gets away scot-free. She gets to leave, she gets to, you know.

Paul G: 12:19

Then he meets Faye Clemens.

Andrea: 12:21

Yes, Faye Clemens. I do have a picture of her, it's a drawing. She looks like your typical, you know, 1940s girl, basically, I could say.

Paul G: 12:30

I guess she was a little argumentative.

Andrea: 12:32

She was feisty. She was feisty.

Paul G: 12:36

I like my women a little feisty.

Andrea: 12:38

They fought a lot, uh, from what I understand. Uh Red was kind of um like to control the situation.

Paul G: 12:46

Well, he's doing what his dad taught him.

Andrea: 12:48

Yeah.

Paul G: 12:49

So now keep in mind, this guy's not even 21 yet.

Andrea: 12:53

Yeah, he's I think he dies at when he's 25 or 24. 24. No, 24, 25. But um basically he meets the you know, hot and heavy, this lady. You know, they live in Little Rock, they like to go dancing, they like to have, you know, a nice fun time, and she gets frustrated with it.

Paul G: 13:09

I probably saw Hank Williams live, more than likely. The actual Hank Williams. Maybe it's running around about that. But why wasn't he in the military? That's what I always ask. Well, why wasn't this guy drafted?

Andrea: 13:21

Uh well, I think because he had um basically couldn't follow directions.

Paul G: 13:26

Well, I then he was, you know, probably because he was had that injury.

Andrea: 13:30

Yeah.

Paul G: 13:30

And that's gonna 4F you right there. Which 4F for those of you who don't know, is in World War II was the military classification for unfit for duty. Yeah. You could have flat feet.

Andrea: 13:43

Yeah, flat feet was one of them dyslexia.

Paul G: 13:46

If you have no teeth, you're not going.

Andrea: 13:48

Dyslexia.

Paul G: 13:50

Okay.

Andrea: 13:50

I think I've heard that before.

Paul G: 13:52

I don't think they tested for it then.

Andrea: 13:54

I think there's a way they could find it, figure it out.

Paul G: 13:56

But I don't think if you had mild dyslexia, they're like, whatever, just remember to duck.

Andrea: 14:02

What? You don't want someone with severe dyslexia flying a plane.

Paul G: 14:05

Yeah, but give them a rifle and tell them to go that way. They can do that.

Andrea: 14:09

But don't you have to like read a map or read certain things? Don't put them in charge. Still, I think you needed like reading is important.

Paul G: 14:17

Why did you invade New Zealand? You should have been invading Europe. It's the other side. Oh, I transposed the longitude.

Andrea: 14:26

I mean, I don't know. I know with dyslexia, it's um B's and D's. You flip certain letters around, um, severity, you flip numbers around. Um, my daughter has dyslexia, so that's how I know that one of them anyway. One of them, yeah. But she does great though. So Farine buys his, you know, leaves him for a bit, stays with a friend, talks to her friend about how, you know, I'm kind of missing Red. And then she goes back to Red, and then one evening she says, Oh, we're gonna go dancing in Little Rock. Yep. So she gets on this really nice pretty dress, talks about these pretty pretty buttons and these nice brand new shoes.

Paul G: 15:02

Which is very important to females. The shoes.

Andrea: 15:05

Yes, which is interesting in this because it talks about this about how they go dancing, they have a great time. She wants to take the elevator down as they're leaving.

Paul G: 15:13

Oh yeah.

Andrea: 15:15

And Red's like, no, we're gonna take the stairs.

Paul G: 15:18

She didn't what to because her feet hurt.

Andrea: 15:19

And she had her shoes off. And so basically, they end up walking down the stairs, they have a little bit of an argument outside of the car, and her friend's with her. And so she gets in the car, she moves over for her friend to get over, and her and Red are still arguing outside the window and he slaps her. And so they get in the car.

Paul G: 15:38

Back then, that's allowed.

Andrea: 15:40

Yeah, it is allowed, unfortunately. And so they drive.

Paul G: 15:43

It's looked down upon. Yeah. But they're not gonna throw you in jail over it.

Andrea: 15:47

So this has all taken place, you know, in September 14th of 1944. So basically, they drop the girlfriend off.

Paul G: 15:55

It's probably still 100 degrees outside in Little Rock.

Andrea: 15:57

Well, probably. And they never hear from Miss Farine again. Oh, they found her, they found her, yes. But her family's the one that pushed a lot of it. They uh bugged Red a lot, like where's where's she at? Red would be like, I don't know, she just disappeared. But what's funny though is when they're arguing, she kind of like mouths off to him and makes a statement about how basically she's just gonna get in a car and go to the coast and leave him.

Paul G: 16:19

Yeah. She gets tired of his crap. But then a little while later, they find her beaten to death.

Andrea: 16:26

Yep.

Paul G: 16:28

She washed up in the Arkansas River.

Andrea: 16:31

Yep. And the crazy thing about this is Reds picked up, questioned, and he just said, Oh, she just left me one night. We decided we had re argumented that night, our had an argument that night. We went to bed. I woke up the next morning and she's gone.

Paul G: 16:45

And of course, I don't know how she was so distraught that she went to a bridge and banged her head against it as much as possible until she accidentally fell over into the river. That's what happened, according to Red.

Andrea: 16:58

Yeah, I'm like, who's gonna believe that?

Paul G: 17:01

And so uh I'm gonna beat myself up.

Andrea: 17:03

But the family is of course distraught and upset, and they were like, Where's our daughter? So they go to the police department and they're like, Hey, she's missing, we don't know where she went, she's married to this guy named Red, we've noticed bruises on her, da da da. And the police are sort of like, uh, we can't do anything without a body.

Paul G: 17:20

Yeah, well, or on top of that, you could beat your wife up, and if the police thought if the guy who's taking the report goes, she's so full of crap, I'd have done the same thing. Then they're not gonna file charges anyway. Yeah. So you the the thought of the day, there was it was back then, and this is something we've left out of policing now, but back then it was all of policing, so there's that fine line from too far one way versus too far the other way. But back then, if the cop felt it wasn't that big a deal, he got to choose if you were going to jail or not.

Andrea: 18:00

That's messed up.

Paul G: 18:01

But that's the way it was.

Andrea: 18:02

But that's messed up.

Paul G: 18:03

It was in LA until the mid late eighties. Now we've gone completely the other way, and the cop has no choice but to send you to jail over anything.

Andrea: 18:14

I guess because this is just my speculation. I I guess maybe because they ignored so many other things that they'd rather err on the side of caution than not.

Paul G: 18:24

I can see that. And I'd rather have it the way it is now than the way it was then, but there needs to be, you know, we'd be the cops need to be able to make a decision. If this doesn't warrant somebody going to jail, they just screwed up for a second, it's an accident. But I mean not when it comes to beating your wife, but I'm talking about just in general.

Andrea: 18:43

But uh, they don't know how many times you've gotten away with it. Yeah, yeah. I mean, nobody knows. And they I mean, I think the past of them ignoring things has probably made them more mindful about it now.

Paul G: 18:54

When it comes to something like that, if you see signs and not just somebody getting in an argument once and being loud, because that's just being loud, that's not illegal. Yeah, you could stand in the middle of the road and scream at each other, and they're the most they can get you for is disturbing the peace, which is like a ten dollar fine or a fifty dollar fine.

Andrea: 19:15

But they still get called, people still get called.

Paul G: 19:17

Yeah.

Andrea: 19:18

But which is it should because you don't know if one minute from arguing is it gonna escalate to him bringing out a gun or him just knocking her to the ground. Or her knocking him to the ground.

Paul G: 19:26

Yeah, it's a lot more women beat up guys these days, but then we know they don't they don't do that with the women tend to I've seen it where chicks are beating up their man. And I'm like, what the hell?

Andrea: 19:39

Yeah, I don't know.

Paul G: 19:40

And the guy's like, he she's not really hurting me. Just let her just let her because guys can take a lie, because guys have to fight guys.

Andrea: 19:46

Yeah, yeah.

Paul G: 19:48

But uh yeah, anyway, so they just kind of ignored it and went on. It's like, yeah, whatever.

Andrea: 19:53

So, you know, he's kind of hanging around Little Rock doing his thing, saying that she ran off, basically packed up all her stuff, dropped it off at her family's house, which I find that a little suspicious.

Paul G: 20:03

If she just disappeared, you know, I don't need this stuff, she's dead.

Andrea: 20:07

I mean, yeah, exactly. But I'm sitting here thinking, you just kind of like to the family, I'd be like, Why are you giving me all my daughter's clothes?

Paul G: 20:14

I don't know. I didn't need it anymore.

Andrea: 20:16

I mean, uh the only okay, there's a caveat to that. A, we know he killed her. Okay, let's just get the coming. Hindsight, yeah. And to the family, they're thinking, like, and he and then he could be like, Oh, she left me. Here's her stuff.

Paul G: 20:28

Yeah, yeah. She can come back. And if she does come back, she can come back here, so here's her crap.

Andrea: 20:33

Or, you know, she ain't coming back because she had a celestial departure.

Paul G: 20:38

Heaven's gate.

Andrea: 20:39

Heaven's gate. So basically, Red's doing his thing, and then his second interesty thing is a gentleman by the name of Carl Hamilton. This is July 29th.

Paul G: 20:49

What's he doing in the meantime? After he gets done with killing her and gives her stuff back, he just takes off.

Andrea: 20:55

He just takes off, yeah.

Paul G: 20:56

And he and he he travels, he's traveling all around the country. He's gone to Texas, he's gonna Arizona. And in Arizona, he claims that he killed ten Mexicans.

Andrea: 21:06

That's true. Yeah, which we can't really substantiate any of that.

Paul G: 21:09

Like in in Arizona, if he killed ten Mexicans, the local police would be like, hmm, I don't care. Because they're not, you know, they don't live here. They're they come up here and they do a bunch of stuff and then they bother people and then they leave.

Andrea: 21:21

Yeah.

Paul G: 21:22

And you know, that's the mentality of the day. Especially in southern Arizona. They're like, no. There was no there was no fence. There was no border. You had the Rio Grande. And that was the only thing keeping people from going between Mexico and the United States. It sure has. Up until the probably the mid eighties, nineties. Absolutely. And they still they have a border crossing, but if you've ever seen you we watched the movie with Jack Nicholson uh Chinatown.

Andrea: 21:54

Yeah.

Paul G: 21:54

Where does he go? He goes into Mexico. And there's no it's no check. You just go.

Andrea: 22:00

Yeah, back then you would just get in your car and go.

Paul G: 22:02

Yep. Just get and go.

Andrea: 22:04

Which is crazy, but you're in a different country.

Paul G: 22:07

You didn't even need a passport, just needed a way to get there.

Andrea: 22:11

Crazy. There is one thing that he they think that he might have killed, but they can't substantiate it, is he was in Kansas and they don't know the circumstances.

Paul G: 22:20

Boiler room worker or something like that, wouldn't he?

Andrea: 22:22

No, I think it's the king it's Kansas where a guy was buying, dropped his kids off to go Christmas shopping, and then he gets all their Christmas gifts wrapped up in this beautiful pretty paper, puts it in the back of the car, and he's sitting there in the car, and I guess red shoots, and we don't really know the exact details of it.

Paul G: 22:38

Probably cussed at him or something.

Andrea: 22:40

But the sad thing that I remember the most about it is the girls get in the car and say, Hey Dad, let's go home. And then they see him slump over in the car. I mean, that's that's that's sick, and that's mean. I mean, that's awful.

Paul G: 22:54

That's about right though.

Andrea: 22:56

But they also says maybe his second killing was Carl Hamilton on January 29th, 1945. They say he was a bootlegger found shot in his car. This is not the same guy. But this is like around Arkansas. They don't exactly say exactly where he's at.

Paul G: 23:09

So what's he doing now? Is he just running around?

Andrea: 23:12

Yeah, he's just running around, probably wanting money, probably wanting food, and just taking opportunity when he gets it. And he uses the same gun and all these things.

Paul G: 23:22

Which is the reason why they figured out they figured out it was him. Now at the same time, though, this is World War II.

Andrea: 23:27

Yeah.

Paul G: 23:28

Right? And he's running around Little Rock and around Stuttgart.

Andrea: 23:32

Yeah.

Paul G: 23:32

Which is where my family's from.

Andrea: 23:34

Yes, that's correct.

Paul G: 23:35

And in Stuttgart at the time, you go to stuff you go and look on Google Maps now, or you go and do any research on Stuttgart, you're gonna see rice riceland foods. Oh yeah, rice producers are huge. So um that's where the home office for Riceland is. And uh you'll see a town of about oh I don't know, 3,000 people. Okay.

Andrea: 23:58

It's only 3,000, really?

Paul G: 23:59

Give or take.

Andrea: 24:00

Wow, okay.

Paul G: 24:01

That's not much. It was only 8,000 back in the 90s and the 80s. So maybe 15 at one point, and when I was a little kid, but it's just it's just people just leaving because there's nothing there. There's absolutely nothing there. I mean, Main Street still has open businesses that are just that are still doing business. That doesn't, you know, that doesn't happen in a regular town. Now we've got shopping centers.

Andrea: 24:27

When you were showing me like pictures of it, I don't really remember seeing any shopping centers. It was like downtown had their little shops and that was it. I didn't think about that until you mentioned it, but yeah.

Paul G: 24:36

Yeah, there's not there was a Walmart and an old new movie theater tore up and fallen down, and a community college. And that's it. I'm surprised there's a community college, to be honest. Well, there's nothing down there, so everybody from the all around the couple of counties come there.

Andrea: 24:50

Oh, that would make sense.

Paul G: 24:51

Yeah, yeah. So um but at the time Little Rog or not Little Rock, Stuttgart. Um because it's a bunch of rice fields, it looks like France and its uh orchards and whatnot. Rice fields.

Andrea: 25:08

Which I didn't know this until you was telling me about this with World War II, how Stuttgart was like really important to the war.

Paul G: 25:14

Yeah. So when you look and you wonder, you know, if you wonder why in the world is this guy in Stuttgart and there's a reason because there's six thousand soldiers stationed in Stuttgart at this time. Six thousand or more. That's just the core people, so they're moving people in and out. So there could be as many as fifteen thousand Americ US soldiers, service members for the Army in there. And the reason for that is they built a uh an airbase because there was no air force, it was Army Air Corps at that time. And uh they built an airbase where they trained them how to use the gliders when they invaded France.

Andrea: 25:54

Which I didn't know gliders were a thing until you're telling me about it, because I'm like, What's a glider? I'm thinking like planes, that's what everyone didn't.

Paul G: 26:00

You know, glider. Like uh hauled it and and dropped them in behind the lines. So they're training the pilots and the guys how to do stuff there. And my grandmother, she told me many times she would see them crash in the field behind the house because you know they're just wooden balls of wood giant balls of wood planes like you, you know, that weak balls of wood.

Andrea: 26:21

I'm just thinking the way you picture it, I'm just thinking like this kite, them coming in flying on a kite.

Paul G: 26:25

No, it's it's a it's a rudimentary plane. Um so there's six thousand guys there, so it makes sense why he's gonna go there. Why he's gonna be in Fordyce and why he's gonna be in Stockhart, which is the places where he killed people.

Andrea: 26:40

Yeah, between Stockart and Little Rock.

Paul G: 26:42

Yeah. And well Fordyce is uh somewhat different, but yeah. Um but he's down there because I guarantee you six thousand service servicemen from all around the country. There's gambling, there's drinking, there's girls.

Andrea: 26:55

Right? Yeah, makes sense.

Paul G: 26:56

And there's money to be made, and money to steal. Money to steal, and people to steal from is the biggest thing. So yeah, the two and a half times the population of Stuckart is stationed there during World War II.

Andrea: 27:09

How far is Stuckart from Little Rock? You would know better. Just an hour?

Paul G: 27:12

Maybe maybe less.

Andrea: 27:14

Really?

Paul G: 27:15

I would figure then it would be about an hour because the road they didn't have highways or interstate interstates.

Andrea: 27:19

Oh, yeah, they didn't. There's like two-lane roads, probably.

Paul G: 27:22

All of the interstate going to Memphis and then you take a right and go to Stuggart.

Andrea: 27:26

Oh wow. Yeah, that's crazy. I guess I take for granted that well, uh I remember being in high school when we got the inner I mean, the interstate past Fayetteville to go to to Fort Smith was like the thing.

Paul G: 27:40

Yeah, and then all the cows were like, why did you mess with our land I was eating?

Andrea: 27:45

Exactly. Which is kind of like that now because I'm like, we need we need moo cows for like, you know, we love our hamburger, but you know, and steak, but yes, we need land to grow them on.

Paul G: 27:54

When I see a cow, some people when they see a cow, they go, Mmm, those beautiful little cows, they're so innocent. And I look at the cows and go, hmm, lunch. Used to always do that to my kids. You'd go, steak, steak.

Andrea: 28:05

Because one of my kids thought about being a vegetarian. We knew that wouldn't last long. No, uh, not not in our house. We love you, vegetarians out there, but yeah.

Paul G: 28:13

You can do what you want, didn't matter.

Andrea: 28:14

I can't do it.

Paul G: 28:15

Uh so yeah, he's down there for that, and he's hitchhiking the whole way.

unknown: 28:19

Right.

Andrea: 28:20

Which I guess to me, I mean, we hitchhiked up until what, the 70s and 80s?

Paul G: 28:24

Yeah, and people started dying.

Andrea: 28:26

And then they're like, hmm, maybe we should stop.

Paul G: 28:30

Now we have news, we have TV.

Andrea: 28:32

We have everything.

Paul G: 28:33

Yeah. Back then they had the radio and newspapers.

Andrea: 28:36

That's right. You're right. There was no TV.

Paul G: 28:38

There was Well, there was TV, but barely.

Andrea: 28:41

Barely. Yeah. I was thinking TV didn't really didn't come around to the 50s.

Paul G: 28:44

It's true. But uh they had T T V in the 20s in New York City, for example.

Andrea: 28:49

Oh really?

Paul G: 28:50

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But it was very, you know, you had to be super rich.

Andrea: 28:53

It must have been a gigantic TV.

Paul G: 28:55

Yeah, yeah. It was heavy. Well, it was actually really small.

Andrea: 28:58

Oh, was it?

Paul G: 28:58

Because they couldn't they didn't know how to make it bigger because it's you know radiation and all that goodness.

Andrea: 29:02

I don't remember. Now we've got like flat screen TVs and stuff, I bet, you know. Yeah. It's crazy.

Paul G: 29:07

I wanna get it embedded in my eye. I can just sit here with my eyes closed and watch TV.

Andrea: 29:11

Well, you could have used that for church today.

Paul G: 29:13

No, I mean how many people be watching porn in church. They could do that.

Andrea: 29:20

Oh, that's just awful. You're not supposed to be like remotely doing that anywhere, but church would be like, God should strike you dead right there. There'd be a lot more people going to the pew.

Paul G: 29:28

Paul, did you hear the sermon today? No, no, no. You were there. Yeah, but I was watching uh pulp fiction.

unknown: 29:33

Oh god.

Andrea: 29:36

Well, one of the hit Red's victims that we've been able to find out was E. C. Adams. And this was February 1st, 1945. He was a war plant worker from Little Rock, fed down, found dead outside for Foresight by gunshot. Basically, it's been saying I read in here that Red's like, I'm going to Louisiana. And the guy's like, sure, come on, get in the car. I'll take you as far as Camden. And so he gets in the car and Which is hot springs, by the way.

unknown: 30:04

Is it really? Yeah.

Andrea: 30:05

I didn't know of that.

Paul G: 30:06

And so they took hands and they were side of the state from Stuttgart, actually.

Andrea: 30:10

Oh, okay. Yeah. So basically his car was found later that day by um basically a a police officer that was noticing that his had Kansas plates, but that his car hadn't moved. Like he made to do his, I guess you could say his patrol. He drove down and then an hour and a half later noticed the same car was still there. So he stopped and noticed that the guy was slumped over dead.

Paul G: 30:31

Say, hey y'all, what are you doing here?

Andrea: 30:33

And it supposedly there he found two sets of shoe prints on the ground leading off into the woods, and then only one set back to the highway, and it was falling along the tracks, you know, rowboard tracks and dense trees and undergrowth. He found several footprints, but that was really about it. Um, that they that was it. I guess I don't know how they linked that to him to be But this whole time.

Paul G: 30:56

I mean, the this guy is going around killing people only because he got hit in the head with a stick. That's really the sad part about the whole thing.

Andrea: 31:03

Well, that and his dad beat the Everlum daylights out of him.

Paul G: 31:06

Yeah, but I mean how many people got their asses handed to him as a kid and that grew up to be a normal person.

Andrea: 31:12

Well, that's true. I guess you could say how many people got hit in the head with a stick and turned out fine. Yeah. I think it's like a combination of both, probably, I would suspect.

Paul G: 31:19

Well, it depends on the damage in the in the in the brain. And so he shot him with the same 38 pistol that he shot everybody. He shot the other guy at Carl Hamilton.

Andrea: 31:30

But what's funny though is he turns his pockets inside out, he takes his shoes, his socks, off his feet, empties out his empties out his wallet. Um the wallet had the initials ECA on it beside him. Um there's a set of car keys in there. Um basically, you know, that was it. They trace a license plate to the wife. And what's sad is they have how long that took, like three days.

Paul G: 31:58

I don't know. You have to make a phone call.

Andrea: 32:01

To Kansas, and Kansas would have to go look it up and the whole time you're having to you're getting the hold of an operator.

Paul G: 32:06

Operator, can you give me an operator in Kansas? Well, I can't, but I can give you one in in in McAllister, and they have the number for Kansas. Okay. Operator in McAllister, can you give me the number for Kansas? Well, yeah, I have Kansas, but only Wichita. Well, I need such and such and such other place. And the operator has to connect every time.

Andrea: 32:25

I would think that okay, they don't know what town he's in there, they don't know what place he had.

Paul G: 32:28

There was no area codes either.

Andrea: 32:30

Was there no area codes this time?

Paul G: 32:32

You had to know where you had to call talk to an operator and say, Yeah, I want to talk to this person in this place. So the operator had to figure out how to get it connected.

Andrea: 32:45

That's crazy. Yeah. The sad thing about all of this is he had a two-week-old daughter.

Paul G: 32:50

Ugh.

Andrea: 32:50

Yeah.

Paul G: 32:51

Sucks. Hope he had life insurance.

Andrea: 32:53

I don't know, but uh what's weird? You take a pair of socks and shoes from the guy.

Paul G: 32:58

Well, he if his shoes were worn out, I mean he didn't care, obviously.

Andrea: 33:01

So yeah, it's just crazy to me. But you know, basically the killing continued. So we have the next one is uh Doyle Melhorn.

Paul G: 33:14

Mulheron.

Andrea: 33:14

This guy was a truck driver. It's on the exact same date, February 1st, 1945. He was a meatpacking truck driver, found shot to death. And from what I gather from reading this, did he get from Fordyce to Stuckart that quick? I don't know. It's on the same day, but I I don't I don't know what made him shot this guy. I think he said in later things that he just wanted money, I think, if I remember correctly. But I mean, this is like so sad though. Um this guy, Merlin, was basically um Merlin was going on is he they said that in the book that you can track his route down to a T, like down by the minute. He kept the same route between Stuckart and Little Rock, yeah, and Little Rock. And so pretty much, you know, you can set your watch to it. Um he had the same 38 caliber slug. So wait a minute.

Paul G: 34:01

He was in Camden, but it was Fordyce where he shot that guy.

Andrea: 34:06

Right.

Paul G: 34:06

Fordyce is only like 70 miles from Stuckart.

Andrea: 34:10

Okay.

Paul G: 34:10

But Camden, uh Camden, Arkansas.

Andrea: 34:16

Well, from what I understand, this guy had his meatpacking plug between Stuckart and Little Rock. Right, but Foresight's on the opposite side of the state. I don't know.

Paul G: 34:24

Camden is. Not Foresight.

Andrea: 34:26

Okay.

Paul G: 34:27

Foresight's over there. But what about Camden?

Andrea: 34:30

Where'd you get Camden from?

Paul G: 34:32

You said it.

Andrea: 34:32

No, I said uh he's you said his routine like a watch between Little Rock and Stuckart.

Paul G: 34:37

The last murder.

Andrea: 34:38

The last murder, he was um I guess I'm wrong about where Camden is.

Paul G: 34:43

I didn't think it was over there. I guess it's more towards the middle. I thought it was Camden.

Andrea: 34:52

No, he he's found he was found outside foresight with a gunshot. So I mean, it's on the same day. We don't know what time. I mean, any of this took place.

Paul G: 35:05

That's true.

Andrea: 35:06

And maybe he took a hitchhiking and didn't hurt the person to get there faster. I mean, I don't know.

Paul G: 35:12

We could hop the train.

Andrea: 35:13

That's true, we could hop the train.

Paul G: 35:19

Camden is from hot springs is only sixty miles. Okay, four days. Camden Hot Springs. Hot springs in Camden. I guess I'm just mistaken on where Camden is. I I don't understand that. So he's mostly sixty miles is about an hour and a half, two hours in the day. Maybe less because people drove really fast and didn't care.

Andrea: 35:44

Or drove slower than ninety minutes in 45.

Paul G: 35:48

90 minutes to get from hot springs to Camden. So yeah, I guess Camden's further towards the middle of the state than maybe we should have told our listeners they need a map. You need a map. So what's interesting though, they don't just sit there thinking about the geography of this. I'm like, huh, how did he get there in the same day? But no, it makes sense now, I guess. I mean even if it was even if he went to Hot Springs. I don't think he went to Hot Springs. I think he just went south out of Little Rock to Camden and then took a left into Ford Ice and then to uh Stockhart.

Andrea: 36:24

Oh, I imagine if he's like hit his head and doesn't really have a plan, he's just winging this. I would imagine.

Paul G: 36:30

Yeah, and in the meantime, he killed 72 Mexicans. I don't think so?

Andrea: 36:37

I don't know. See, you know, I don't know. I'm not gonna put anything past him.

Paul G: 36:40

I think he's full of crap when it comes to the Mexicans. But what is interesting though is that you killed 10 Mexicans all at once or one at a time? What would you do? Did you blow him up, hit him with a train? I don't think he killed 10 Mexicans. I think he was just bragging.

Andrea: 36:51

One on ten is a little impossible, I would think, for anybody. Yeah. But interesting thing about this case though is the the cops are like, hmm, this guy was killed with his pockets emptied and hit killed with the 38, and this guy's pockets were empty and killed with a 38. I think we have a link.

Paul G: 37:06

Mm-hmm. And they back then they knew how to do ballistics.

Andrea: 37:09

He only got $129 from this last guy.

Paul G: 37:12

That's a lot of money back then.

Andrea: 37:13

Well, it is a lot of money back then.

Paul G: 37:15

$14 a month for rent.

Andrea: 37:17

I can't $14 a month for rent. Wow.

Paul G: 37:21

For a nice place, too. It's not just a dump.

Andrea: 37:23

So $129 would be like a gold mine.

Paul G: 37:26

Mm-hmm. I mean, they only got paid like $100 a month to be in the military.

Andrea: 37:31

Wow.

Paul G: 37:32

Yeah.

Andrea: 37:33

I guess I never really thought about like money in the 40s because I just remember being a kid getting to buy like a piece of candy for five cents, and I thought I was the shiznit at, you know, at the 10. But um it would still cost eight bucks. Crazy.

Paul G: 37:46

Okay, so everybody here, $12 a month uh is rent plus utilities.

Andrea: 37:54

Really?

Paul G: 37:54

Yeah. In 1945 dollars, 1940 dollars. 12 bucks a month.

Andrea: 38:00

What in the world did we do for you can't even get anything for $14 a month now?

Paul G: 38:05

We can get a yeah, Netflix subscription cost more than that now.

Andrea: 38:09

And then that's crazy. What did Netflix used to be what? Six six ninety-nine or something like that?

Paul G: 38:14

That was always like nine bucks if you wanted to well, I had you know, I always had three DVDs at once. Three and I did the Blu-ray, so I didn't do any of that.

Andrea: 38:22

I remember when it kept going up, and I'm like, what in the world? But I guess, you know, everything goes up.

Paul G: 38:28

Yeah, so a hundred bucks is that's an almost you could that's six months rent.

Andrea: 38:34

Yeah. Yeah, but when he said that, I didn't really think about like things were cheaper then, but I was like, oh my gosh, nobody can get that now. Well, supposedly that's what we know he's killed, but he has a lot of unsubstantiated victims. He's got 11 in the same year before he met his wife. I'm not sure which one.

Paul G: 38:51

Ten cents for a loaf of bread, by the way.

Andrea: 38:53

Ten cents.

Paul G: 38:54

Yeah. Or an expensive loaf of bread.

Andrea: 38:57

Wow. So this guy's confessed this, but he has zero names, zero dates, and zero locations for them to even corroborate any of this. Yeah. So more than likely he's just, you know, talking some stuff. Supposedly a farm worker in Kansas, but no matching homicide was found.

Paul G: 39:12

Well, they thought he killed uh they they were gonna link him to this dude that was a boiler worker. Yeah. But they he was already going to jail and gonna be executed by then. So it's like whatever.

Andrea: 39:25

Whatever. I'm thinking like let's let's check that out because the person would cost more money to do that and why bother. Well, that explains why our laws are different now.

Paul G: 39:36

Yeah. But I mean, you know, I mean why why why do we want to go through all this crap when we know he's gonna die in a year?

Andrea: 39:43

That's why we have laws now, because they screwed up.

Paul G: 39:47

I don't know. I think we waste money on stuff like that.

Andrea: 39:50

Well, you want to know if they're guilty for sure before you like send them the electric triggers.

Paul G: 39:54

We'll give you an extra piece of steak on your last meal if you tell us whether or not you did this.

Andrea: 40:00

That's not gonna be an incentive for a prisoner.

Paul G: 40:02

And then you can just, you know, admit to it.

Andrea: 40:04

Per piece of steak.

Paul G: 40:06

I mean, people have died for less.

Andrea: 40:09

I hope not. There's a man in Arizona, a motorist between Texas and Arkansas, two hobo killings.

Paul G: 40:16

Yeah, and the hobos no one will care about it at all.

Andrea: 40:19

Yeah, I guess.

Paul G: 40:20

No one cared about the hobos.

Andrea: 40:21

Which I'm thinking, like, picture a hobo is just like some homeless person going from one place to one place.

Paul G: 40:26

Hobos are guys, okay, that's now maybe in the in the late 90s, early 90s, late 80s. Hobo at the time was anybody who lived on the trains.

Andrea: 40:38

Oh, yeah, yeah, you're right.

Paul G: 40:39

And that was a choice. It wasn't because they were poor. That's what they wanted to do. And hobo being a hobo was a lifestyle at the time.

Andrea: 40:49

You're right. I forgot about that, but yeah, it was a lifestyle.

Paul G: 40:52

Yeah. Weird, huh?

Andrea: 40:54

But they also said he killed a man in Clarksville and a sho soldier he shot in 43. Um, so none of this can be instantiated.

Paul G: 41:02

And again, this guy's 23, 22 years old when he did this, because it's gonna take about a year for the trial and him to wait in prison before they kill him. He did this before 20 by the age of 23.

Andrea: 41:15

I know. It's just what got him caught though, I think it's funny, is he decided, hmm, I'm gonna go back to Little Rock.

Paul G: 41:22

Well, of course he's gonna go back to Little Rock.

Andrea: 41:24

That's what he knows.

Paul G: 41:25

Let's visit his first wife.

Andrea: 41:28

I hope not, for her sake. But he goes back to Little Rock and he's sneaking around some cars, and you know, somebody called the cops and he gets arrested. And when he gets arrested, he pretty much just confesses everything. Yeah. He doesn't even try to hide it, he just basically just blurts it all out what he did, almost like he's proud of it.

Paul G: 41:47

And be you know, the reason he's coming up with all these other homicides that he thinks that he says he does is because everybody's like fawning over him. He's getting all this attention now because he's been arrested for killing people.

Andrea: 42:00

Yeah. So this was like March 15th of 1945. Little Rock detained him because he's just snooping around some cars and he just Well, he had all the stolen stuff on him, too. Yeah, he had stolen stuff, and you know, like things from the victims, and he had a bunch of money, and they're kind of like he just openly opens his mouth.

Paul G: 42:16

So whoever he wasn't very smart because of his brain injury, he was actually quite dumb. And these days we might not put him to death because we don't put to death people who were stupid.

Andrea: 42:28

No, we do not, and we don't put to death people with mental illness. He had one.

Paul G: 42:32

Oh, yeah. Well, he he had a verifiable brain injury, so he's Yeah.

Andrea: 42:38

So um that's so he gets in there and he just starts confessing everything, starts saying everything, you know, and basically um they go to trial, and uh there's pretty like nothing to really to prove. Um, they try to get all these people in from like different areas saying, you know, uh they were curious about how the way he would lived, caused him to do this. He was um mentally unstable, he was slow. Uh everyone's trying to like kind of give an excuse, like the defense attorneys always do, to try to get somebody, you know, off.

Paul G: 43:10

Well, and he was trying once he was convicted, uh, one of the attorneys tried to get his execution date moved because it happened on the attorney's birthday.

Andrea: 43:20

I read that in the paper and I was laughing. I was like, who in the world is going to be able? He's like, it's a special day for me. It's your birthday.

Paul G: 43:30

I don't care. It's not his birthday, it was an attorney's birthday.

Andrea: 43:34

Oh, that's right, his attorney's birthday. The attorney doesn't want his birthday to be forever tainted.

Paul G: 43:39

Yeah. No, bye. We're we did we don't care.

Andrea: 43:43

Yeah. So another thing that's funny, he's sitting in jail and you know, doing his thing.

Paul G: 43:49

It's a day before.

Andrea: 43:50

And he gets taken out of jail because there is a mattress on fire, a couple cells ago.

Paul G: 43:56

The day before.

Andrea: 43:57

Is the day before what?

Paul G: 43:58

Day before his execution.

Andrea: 44:00

No, I I got a different date.

Paul G: 44:02

Do you?

Andrea: 44:02

Yeah, I got his execution was January 4th, 1946. Yeah. And this was May 12th, 1945. Oh, basically, they had to remove him from the jail cell, and he quotes by saying, the electric chair almost got cheated this morning. End quote.

Paul G: 44:20

So old Sparky.

Andrea: 44:22

Old Sparky.

Paul G: 44:22

Was it called Old Sparky for real?

Andrea: 44:24

That's what it's quoted as saying old Sparky.

Paul G: 44:26

It was this wasn't its first, its first victim, though, was it?

Andrea: 44:31

No, his first victim was Lee Simmons. Now, I couldn't find much information on his trial.

Paul G: 44:36

Lee Simmons or this guy's trial.

Andrea: 44:38

Uh Red's trial.

Paul G: 44:39

Red's trial.

Andrea: 44:40

Basically, uh, he kind of like confessed to it. There wasn't really a trial, it was more or less like sentencing.

Paul G: 44:45

And um But you still have to do some things. If you confess now, I don't even think they give you the death penalty.

Andrea: 44:51

The book really didn't cover his trial much. So it was kind of like, you know, he gets up there, confesses, and then he gets obviously gonna go to the electric chair. But um he uh like he was proud of it. Well, of course. But what the sad thing is that I read in the book is he's getting executed, and I don't know how this works. The trial took three days, yeah, three days.

Paul G: 45:14

Yeah.

Andrea: 45:14

That's probably why she didn't cover much of it.

Paul G: 45:16

It was just his wife that he went to jail for.

Andrea: 45:18

Yeah, just his wife. Yeah. So um basically Farine, his first wife, second wife, whatever you want to call her, um, goes and sees him in the bars behind the bars, and basically just asks conjugal visit. Oh god, that's nasty. No conjugal visit with the dad and the the the Mr. Red. Yeah. No conjugal here. That's gross. I don't know, it might be.

Paul G: 45:45

I mean, dad dad has to supervise, remember. He likes to control everything.

Andrea: 45:48

I'm taking it like he's in the conjugal, that's gross.

Paul G: 45:51

No, this it's red.

Andrea: 45:53

Red and then the Farine's dad. I guess Farin's dad.

Paul G: 45:56

Oh, I thought Farine went there.

Andrea: 45:57

No, no, she's dead.

Paul G: 45:59

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. You get me mixed up because I you threw the second wife in here, and I'm like, huh?

Andrea: 46:05

So, anyways, I think he wants to can get him to confess, get him to like say, Why did you kill our daughter? He stated saying, you know, you could have just easily have given her back to us. You know, you didn't basically, why did you kill her? And his response was, you know, I loved her. I never hurt her, I never did anything like that. It was an accident.

Paul G: 46:26

And um she accidentally beat herself to death.

Andrea: 46:29

And the dad's like, you could have brought her home and it would have, you know, that kind of thing.

unknown: 46:33

Yeah.

Andrea: 46:33

Which makes me think if he did get married prior to he let her go, if we're saying that this is like the correct trembling.

Paul G: 46:41

Oh.

Andrea: 46:41

Then why did he be Faye Ring? Was he that mad at her? Because she they were arguing and saying, I'm on a leave.

Paul G: 46:46

She was a little bit she she she told him to piss off many times.

Andrea: 46:49

She's a little spicy.

Paul G: 46:50

Yeah. So he once he once they they sent him to the electric chair. They they what'd they do? They hung his eff up in the state police for like 40 years, 50 years afterwards.

Andrea: 47:07

Yeah, we'll talk about that. I want to mention this point though. While he's in prison, guess what, guys? He's respectable, wonderful, no disciplinary problems, a good overall good inmate.

Paul G: 47:17

Yeah, it's because the prison guards would beat you if you didn't cooperate.

Andrea: 47:21

Now, this is in like the 40s, so they'd beat you if you didn't cooperate.

Paul G: 47:24

They had chain gangs still then.

Andrea: 47:27

Chain gangs. Oh gosh. I've heard like bad.

Paul G: 47:29

Brother Wear Arthur at the beginning.

Andrea: 47:31

Oh, yeah, the chain gang thing. That's just awful. Well, I found that was interesting. It's like, of course you're gonna be nice. There's no women in there for you to kill.

Paul G: 47:37

And they beat his ass if he doesn't do it right.

Andrea: 47:40

So they found this interesting. It's do we still have we don't have we have lethal injection now? We don't have old sparky. Old Sparky was what we called our electric chair. And we only got the electric chair because Arkansas decided that hanging was considered brutal. Brutal.

Paul G: 47:55

And so the dude's head off, yeah.

Andrea: 47:57

They decided that this U of A professor for a thousand dollars decided, and he made the Old Sparky electric chair.

Paul G: 48:05

Well, a thousand bucks, that's a lot of money. That paid his rent for about six years.

Andrea: 48:09

Yeah, and I our first person, like we said, was Lee Simmons. But I found another thing that was interesting, I just remembered. Yeah, they had to execute a guy twice.

Paul G: 48:17

Oh, yeah.

Andrea: 48:18

Because it's funny, they executed him, they thought he was dead. They're putting him in the coffin, fixing to bury him, and they noticed he was still breathing. So they had to put him back in Old Sparky and electrocute him again and then bury him.

Paul G: 48:31

That's why you have to make sure you're they're grounded correctly.

Andrea: 48:34

I'm thinking, and that's in and that's humane.

Paul G: 48:37

Well, oh he was dead. You know, he's brain dead. His body was just living, guaranteed. You know how body works.

Andrea: 48:43

I know, but I'm thinking that's cruel, man.

Paul G: 48:46

Edison executed a uh electrocuted an elephant to prove how DC versus alternate current works.

Andrea: 48:52

You know how they tested old Sparky on a cow.

Paul G: 48:56

On a moo? On a moo. On a moo. Well, you know, it's already pre-baked. Oh god, that's awful. It's already pre-baked.

Andrea: 49:05

But what are you gonna do? Leave this cow in there and how are you gonna strap it in? Exactly. Yeah, I mean, how are you why a cow? I mean, is there like body mass? Body mass? More than likely. How many volts do you have to get? How big like cows are like what?

Paul G: 49:20

A couple half ton.

Andrea: 49:23

Half ton? How much voltage for half a ton? That's a lot of voltage. Well, if it'll work on a cow, it'll work on a dude. Oh, I guess there's not a thousand-pound guy that's gonna sit in the chair.

Paul G: 49:32

So I guess these days maybe.

Andrea: 49:36

So yeah, back to what you were saying. No, when I read this book, the last part of it like made me go, oh god, Arkansas, we're really screwed up.

Paul G: 49:43

So um This is a common thing for all police departments, by the way.

Andrea: 49:47

Yeah, so we'll get that. Basically, 64 people came to witness the guy dying, and there were police officers, peace officers, newspaper people. Yeah. After he was dead, I I'm assuming after he was dead, that doesn't specifically say, they decided I'm gonna make a death mask.

Paul G: 50:04

That's what they did. They did that back then. They'd done that for centuries. That's I mean, that's what they did.

Andrea: 50:09

They made a death mask, and I'm like, why are you making a death mask? And they used to believe that if you send this death mask off to you at the beginning of the time of this day and age of forensic people felt like they can tell you by the ridges on someone's face and lines and his nose is big, he must be a murderer. Yeah, pretty much. So I'm thinking, what do you do with the death mask? And here's the kicker. They were displayed in the Arkansas State Police headquarters up until 1981.

Paul G: 50:41

With all the rest of the guys they executed.

Andrea: 50:43

Can you imagine walking in there?

Paul G: 50:45

I there's like yeah, I mean it was common, man.

Andrea: 50:49

You walk in there and see a bunch of masks on the wall. I mean, people go into the state police not just because they're criminals for like other things. Can you imagine trying to get your driver's test done in the 80s and you see all these dead faces on the wall?

Paul G: 51:00

That's not where you take your driver's test.

Andrea: 51:01

But that's my first thought, but this poor like 15-year-old kid saying all these dead faces on the wall.

Paul G: 51:08

Well, that'd keep you from doing anything. You'd be like, I don't want to end up on there with that guy.

Andrea: 51:12

And like you said earlier, when we're talking about this, it's no different than when they put heads on spikes. So I guess it's kind of the same thing.

Paul G: 51:17

There's a warning to you, you will die. Right?

Andrea: 51:21

But when I read in there, they couldn't figure out what happened to the death masks after they moved in '81. Only two of them are still recovered. Out of, I don't know, they didn't list how many of them.

Paul G: 51:31

Out of all the other inmates, all the all the other executions, they only have two left.

Andrea: 51:35

Yeah. Yeah.

Paul G: 51:36

Oh, they're sitting in some.

Andrea: 51:38

I bet some cops like, I'll take that one.

Paul G: 51:40

Yeah, I can't. They may be.

Andrea: 51:41

I remember that.

Paul G: 51:42

Maybe.

Andrea: 51:43

I remember that guy. I'm gonna take him and take him home.

Paul G: 51:45

Yeah, yeah. Very possible. Very, very, very, very possible. It's that, you know, it could be at the Clinton mansion for all we know.

Andrea: 51:51

Hanging up in someone's garage.

Paul G: 51:53

It could be the Huckabee mansion for all we know.

Andrea: 51:55

That's when grandpa killed Billy Bob and Great Grandpa did. But two of the masks remain, and they're at the old State House Museum in Little Rock.

Paul G: 52:04

Okay. But the sad thing about this though is his- Their DNA has been bedded in that more than likely. You might actually be able to reproduce her DNA and clone them.

Andrea: 52:13

Well, let's not clone Red. We know what he did. Well, if he didn't have the brain damage. That's just dangerous right there.

Paul G: 52:19

If they didn't have the brain damage, it'd be fine.

Andrea: 52:21

I want to know another one. We just make a slave out of him and go on.

unknown: 52:25

Oh gosh.

Andrea: 52:27

What I need to look up just for a follow-up on this now that you got me to thinking, I need to know the names of the death masks and how many we had total.

Paul G: 52:35

I don't know how many people. I mean, it's easy to answer, right?

Andrea: 52:40

Yeah.

Paul G: 52:41

Um how many people?

Andrea: 52:44

Yeah, how many people died on death row in Arkansas?

Paul G: 52:47

Were executed.

Andrea: 52:48

From I guess when the when did we when did we do executions here?

Paul G: 52:53

Probably from the beginning. We found the state and we got the constitution up. Oh, tomorrow we're having a hanging.

Andrea: 53:02

That's probably true. You're gonna hang as you stole a horse.

Paul G: 53:05

Yeah. Back in the end they did that, man.

Andrea: 53:07

Yeah, they did do that. That's a sad thing about it. But can you imagine though? Walk-I'm just thinking, like walking in there and seeing all these heads. I would be I was mortified of the fact we even did it than what other states do it.

Paul G: 53:19

Everybody did it.

Andrea: 53:20

What do you do? Like shove, like here's here's some plaster parish.

Paul G: 53:24

You're just gonna leave him in the electric chair and put the between 200 and 210 executions since the state since becoming a state in 1836.

Andrea: 53:33

That's a lot of heads.

Paul G: 53:34

Uh 160 plus in 1836 to 1913 by hanging. 1913 to 64 at the electric chair, we we executed 60. From 64 to 89, we didn't kill anybody.

Andrea: 53:46

Yeah, probably politics.

Paul G: 53:48

Well, yeah. And from uh 90 to present 30 people.

Andrea: 53:55

I just remember when Hutchinson was governor, he was fast tracking that crap.

Paul G: 53:58

Yeah, well he better, some of these guys have been on death row 30 years.

Andrea: 54:05

That's crazy. But I did figure this out that if no the family didn't claim the body, they were buried on the prison grounds. And he was in Tucker's prison. And so um his family, Red's um family claimed him. But here's the sad thing they buried him, but his parents aren't buried in the same cemetery or around him.

Paul G: 54:25

Well, obviously. This makes sense.

Andrea: 54:28

But what's interesting though is they say that Red is buried, buried very close to Wacy. And then their unborn child.

Paul G: 54:38

Like there's one person's first wife, supposedly.

Andrea: 54:41

There's one other person between her, which is his m her mother.

Paul G: 54:43

Yeah. Which I'm I mean, what do we do with people these days whenever they have that bad injury like that and they're just kind of crazy? What would we what do we do with them?

Andrea: 54:55

I don't really honestly know.

Paul G: 54:57

Do they go on disability?

Andrea: 54:59

I know TBI injuries, some people, um, depending upon I mean what kind of injury they have, I know they get a lot of neurological type follow-up appointments in care, but as far as like personality goes, I don't know. This is also back in the 40s where I don't know what kind of anti that we didn't have antidepressants. We probably didn't even have anti psychotic.

Paul G: 55:18

We had lithium and stuff like that.

Andrea: 55:20

Lithium lithium is probably the only thing we had. I mean, I don't know cocaine, you can do that. I don't think cocaine would help the situation, probably make him worse. I don't know. But lithium is like old school harsh drug, maybe.

Paul G: 55:30

Yeah, yeah.

Andrea: 55:30

But um I would I don't know.

Paul G: 55:33

I know we give you stuck on a battery, you'll feel better. No? Oh, it's lithium, not lithium ion. Yeah, we don't slightly different action.

Andrea: 55:41

But I think we didn't we didn't know about psychology or brain stuff.

Paul G: 55:46

I mean, Freud's around. Well we didn't was around.

Andrea: 55:49

But we thought that a death mask would help us figure out who's a killer, so I guess anything's impossible in a brain state.

Paul G: 55:54

No idea what I mean. They were just it was the infancy of all this stuff. I mean, up until night when I in 94 when I went to college to be, you know, I was taking I was gonna be a psychiatrist.

Andrea: 56:05

Yeah.

Paul G: 56:05

And I went to college and the guy's teaching us, and he's like, maybe it was ninety-two, ninety-three, and he's like, uh anything we don't understand ends up being, you know.

Andrea: 56:15

Schizophrenia?

Paul G: 56:16

Schizophrenia. Yeah. That's uh we don't understand it, it's schizophrenia. Now we have diagnoses. We have all we overdiagnose now. We give diagnoses for things that don't need to be diagnoses.

Andrea: 56:27

Well, I know schizophrenia is broken down into like three or four different types. I only know that because they have separate codes. For what I do, that's important to know. And like depression is broken down into like ten, nine or ten, eight or nine and ten different different so I think like A D H D and A D D H D D D D D D D D B D D. The D D.

Paul G: 56:48

Yeah.

Andrea: 56:49

But I think like Double D's?

Paul G: 56:51

No, those aren't a that's not a psychosis, that's just interesting.

Andrea: 56:53

That's just men looking at boobs.

Paul G: 56:55

Yes. But I think it's interesting. Oh gosh.

Andrea: 57:01

I think though, people like him is probably what got oh like the wrestler in Mindhunter. Everybody's probably watched that, you know, and we're learning about all that stuff. Oh, are we gonna put it into your um Robert Resser twin?

Paul G: 57:14

No, not this guy because it's solved. It's solved, and he just says he's a spree killer.

Andrea: 57:19

Yeah, which I read that.

Paul G: 57:20

Yeah, when I put it in there and it's like not interesting.

Andrea: 57:23

But now I want to Google who is a legitimate serial killer for Arkansas.

Paul G: 57:29

I I know this one guy didn't like cereal very much.

Andrea: 57:32

Does it make him a killer?

Paul G: 57:33

Only if he killed the cereal.

Andrea: 57:38

You're nuts. That's why I love you.

Paul G: 57:41

I hope so.

Andrea: 57:42

Yeah, I love you. You're crazy.

Paul G: 57:46

Uh Westco Wabbit. Am I Elmer Fudding it?

Andrea: 57:50

No, you're not Elmer Fudding it. But that's what we got on Mr. James Weyburn Hall.

Paul G: 57:56

Yeah, he's an interesting cat, I guess.

Andrea: 57:59

He's just uh I was getting all excited. You're gonna use your psychoanalysts on him.

Paul G: 58:03

Well, there's nothing to psychoanalyze, he's nuts because he's got a brain injury.

Andrea: 58:09

So if you get whacked in the head, or know anybody gets whacked in the head, watch, be careful.

Paul G: 58:13

Yeah, I guess. I mean I don't know.

Andrea: 58:15

I'm just being that smart ass.

Paul G: 58:17

I don't know what to tell you. I mean, he was crazy. And because he couldn't help it. He wouldn't.

Andrea: 58:24

Yeah, poor guy.

Paul G: 58:26

So we have more t-shirts up, by the way. Oh, yeah, we do, and more t-shirts. Um, and if you want the t-shirt, you go to Paul Gnewton.com and then go to get yours get get your swag. Because that's where it's all at. And uh I like this one. We haven't destroyed the world yet, is one of the t-shirts. It's because it's Paul G's corner.

Intro Music: 58:49

Right.

Paul G: 58:50

No, there's one for Andrea that we have up there is the Ask Me About Murder or Donuts. Honestly, she mixes them up.

Andrea: 58:56

I don't mix them up. It's the shirt. I know. I can't eat donuts anymore, so.

Paul G: 59:02

And then need to know everything.

Andrea: 59:04

I like that. I need to know everything.

Paul G: 59:06

Yeah, I still like the burger in space personally. Or the Squid Wars. The Squid Wars of uh 2783. I may just buy that just to wear it to see if you get people's weird looks. They would be like, no. Exactly. I like the the Walmart CSI shirt, actually.

Andrea: 59:22

Only people live in Arkansas will get that one, probably.

Paul G: 59:25

CSI Walmart parking lot unit, Arkansas division of the, you know.

Andrea: 59:29

Yeah, a lot of things happen in the Walmart parking lot. Good or bad, I don't know.

Paul G: 59:33

Yeah, it depends. I mean, it depends on where you're at. Midnight a lot of things happen in the Walmart parking lot, too.

Andrea: 59:39

Oh god. What? I don't want to think about that.

Paul G: 59:43

Well, back in the day, with everybody was gone, it was just empty.

Andrea: 59:46

Oh yeah, yeah. Now they're open all 24 hours and places.

Paul G: 59:48

Maybe more. I think they could I think they quit doing that. Oh well. Oh well. Paul Gnewton.com. And if you like the episode, please comment and share and say a bunch of stuff that's pretty. Good or bad, doesn't matter. We just need people to realize we're here.

Andrea: 1:00:04

And whoever in Iowa that seems to really like us and listens to us, email us because we'll give you a shout-out.

Paul G: 1:00:10

Or a shirt, maybe.

Andrea: 1:00:11

Yeah.

Paul G: 1:00:12

We'll send you the Walmart shirt.

Andrea: 1:00:14

Yeah. Bye. Bye.