Jack The Ripper vs HH Holms. Why the two killers are not the same

Was H. H. Holmes really Jack the Ripper?

It’s one of true crime’s most persistent myths. This week on Things I Want To Know, we break it apart using motive, method, timeline, and behavioral profiling.

Andrea takes Whitechapel and builds the Ripper’s profile. Paul steps into Chicago and dissects Holmes. Same era. Completely different predators.

Holmes built traps. Private rooms. Insurance scams. Control and profit at the center of every decision.

The Ripper attacked in public. Fast escalation. From Polly Nichols to Mary Jane Kelly, the violence intensifies in a way that reads like compulsion, not commerce.

We test the royal rumors, the traveling American theory, and the fantasy of one man committing both crime sprees across an ocean.

By the end, the myth looks dramatic.

The evidence does not.

If you prefer psychology over headlines, follow the show. And if you disagree, send us your case.

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Transcript

Cold Open, Theme, Setup

Music 0:06

Well I know he has been heavy lately. I know I'm a little scary, but baby I know that the end is nearing and it won't be long before I make you beg me to take you into my arms and you look at when I say Well, welcome to Things I Wanna Know.

Paul G 0:53

I'm Paul G, and this is Andrea who is baiting her face against the microphone as we speak.

Andrea 1:00

Well, there's this hair that keeps going up my nose when I get close.

Paul G 1:04

Yes, let's put that on the airwaves.

Andrea 1:08

Hey, truth is true.

Paul G 1:09

Yeah, it's true. I guess it's true. Depends on who you ask what the truth is. So, this is our $4 episode.

Andrea 1:18

Yep.

Paul G 1:19

Because it's costing us an extra four bucks just to bring it to you today.

Andrea 1:23

I guess everybody enjoy your cup of coffee.

Paul G 1:25

Well, or just go to uh our website and buy some swag because that's about all we make off some of that stuff is four bucks.

Andrea 1:33

That's about all we get. But we have fun doing it though.

Paul G 1:36

How do you like the theme song? The new song for today.

Andrea 1:39

I don't know, but we're listening to music, and then I'm like kind of like half listening or he's like, you're very you're super pretty or whatever when you die. You're pretty when you die. And I'm like, what the Yeah.

Paul G 1:48

Well, I it's AI music, of course.

Andrea 1:51

I know, that's even scarier, is you didn't tell it.

Paul G 1:53

You didn't tell it to do if I would have told it to do this, to tell me to put it in the lyric, you're even pretty you're prettier when you die. Yeah, come on, that's morbid as hell. If I would have told it to do that, it would have said, No, I can't do that. That breaks the terms of service.

Andrea 2:10

But yet it's already on here.

Paul G 2:11

It did it on its own.

Andrea 2:13

That's even scarier.

Paul G 2:14

I don't know.

Andrea 2:15

But it's funny because it fits the theme. That's why I was like, whoa, this song does fit our little theme today.

Paul G 2:20

Because today we're doing H.H. Holmes versus Jack Jack. Jack the Ripper. I put some echo on there. Let's see if I have that still loaded.

Andrea 2:29

It sounds like they're about to go into a boxing match. Ding.

Paul G 2:32

Jack the Ripper. How's it go? Wait. Jack the Ripper versus H.H. Holmes today in WrestleMania.

Andrea 2:42

Ding ding.

Paul G 2:43

Ding ding.

Andrea 2:44

Is that what they do? Ding ding.

Paul G 2:46

Yeah.

Andrea 2:46

I don't watch that stuff, so I don't know.

Paul G 2:48

I I put some effects on my voice there just now. I don't know if it came through or not. So I don't know.

Andrea 2:53

We'll find out.

Paul G 2:53

I haven't done that in a long time since I was doing Paul G's Cornered Live.

Andrea 2:57

Oh yeah, that's right.

Paul G 2:58

Because I was I had it in old echoes and stuff.

Andrea 3:01

Oh yeah. I think sometimes on some of the podcasts I've been listening to, when they put that little commentary little spin, at least on the one I've been lately listening to, it I laugh because it's funny. How it's like cued and stuff.

Paul G 3:12

So yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't I don't care enough to do that. Well, I mean it's it's hard.

Andrea 3:19

It is for you who does all the editing. We really don't edit. We do this pretty much just straight.

Paul G 3:24

Yeah, there's never an edit on this stuff. When she gets mad at me, she got mad at me for real.

Andrea 3:30

That's true, because we don't edit this.

Paul G 3:32

Yeah. I'm just sitting there going, um, calm down, woman. We're on air.

Andrea 3:36

And the dogs in the background, which I don't know if anybody can hear it.

Paul G 3:39

We um sometimes they can if they get l if they get close enough to the door.

Andrea 3:43

Oh yeah. They just want to come join. Yeah. I guess what got us started on this episode, this was your idea, is uh you were talking about like different ways of doing true crime, and uh there was something we you were watching or listening to that keeps saying about H. H.

Why Holmes Is Not The Ripper

Paul G 3:59

Holmes is they constantly try to say that H. H. Holmes was in the UK or Britain or whatever the hell you want to call it, England at the time. Yeah. This is the 1860s, 1880s, something like that, right? I guess uh Holmes was born in 1861. So Yeah, so he could be, but this is But they said he was in the in the in the England the same time as the uh as the uh Jack the Ripper cases, and I'm like, no, it's not even close. It's not even close. I always do that. I try to mute my watch and I hit find my phone. Uh and all you have to do is anyway, we'll get into that. So I'm like, let's let's actually take on this conspiracy of H H Holmes being Jack the Ripper. Yeah. And I'm I know the don't I know the Holmes stuff almost forward and backwards.

Andrea 4:49

And everybody knows the Ripper case. Yeah, everybody knows. I'm not gonna rehash like. No, but we're I mean, there is some points that I brought up because everybody knows this case so well that you know uh names and what happened to them it needs to be accurate, but I'm not gonna go we're not gonna go into every detail, but no, because it's all documented clearly, and there's been four billion podcasts on it, and that's not what this podcast is about.

Paul G 5:14

This podcast is about knowing. And we I like to delve into the deep waters of psychological profiling.

Andrea 5:24

Yes, you like the psychology part of it.

Paul G 5:26

Yeah, and she just likes true crime because she's the demo, the demographic that listens to true crime is.

Andrea 5:32

I think every single every white female from the age of like 30, probably to 65 listens to this stuff. Just be realistic.

Paul G 5:42

That's why I got into it, because you know, every white female.

Andrea 5:46

I shouldn't say white female, I mean all females.

Paul G 5:48

I shouldn't say every female, you know. I'm I was dating, I was trying to find a wife. Yeah, but um looking for my wifey.

Andrea 5:56

My kids even laugh about when um I'd put them to bed when they were little, that they would come out they would come out and they would hear like behind the couch listen to deadly women and and stuff like that. So when they hear the music to deadly women, they always start laughing because they remember like sneaking out and me getting putting them back to bed and telling them they can't watch this stuff because it wasn't appropriate, but they'd still come out and do it anyways.

Paul G 6:17

Yeah.

Andrea 6:17

That um I was into true crime for a long, long time.

Paul G 6:21

Which you know, just another reason for me not to be happy I don't have any kids. Those reasons have been multiplying lately.

Andrea 6:30

Oh, yeah, yeah.

Paul G 6:32

I'm glad I don't have any kids. So I think if I did a whoop no, never mind.

Andrea 6:36

I think what stems the the how they think they're one and the same is based upon H. H. Holmes' ancestor, who's a f I think a former cop or detective. I think he's the one that kind of feels like that it's the linkage is correct.

Paul G 6:51

Yeah, yeah. The the the current air ancestor who's alive now. I'll I my opinion, so I don't get sued. My opinion is that he does he's put all this together, this guy about Holmes, to garner publicity for his book.

Andrea 7:08

Oh, I didn't even know he had a book. Yeah.

Paul G 7:11

Everybody writes a book in this field. Uh something bad happens to you, you write a book, you make a month, you'll make a bunch of money because people can't not stop reading it.

Andrea 7:19

Uh yeah, that's true. I mean, that's kind of why it's become a genre and kind of why we we talk about it. A genre? Genre. Yeah. But I mean, even you and I were talking about how they can't be one and the same just upon the simple fact of the crime scenes alone.

Paul G 7:36

Yeah, yeah. The crime scenes tell you everything you need to know. And then when you double when you go deeper, it gets even stranger that how they could even believe that these two guys are the same.

Andrea 7:50

Like H. H. Holmes, he was committing these acts in his murder castle in Chicago for pretty much financial gain.

Paul G 7:57

Well, it wasn't just in his murder castle in Chicago. Yeah, he didn't have he's done it, he he was he was killing people far earlier than that. And you know, he was born Mudget.

Andrea 8:11

Yeah.

Paul G 8:11

Which is probably the reason he became a serial killer because his name was Mudget. I mean, if my name was Mudget, I'd I'd be changing it too. But why did he choose Holmes? This is also the time period, I think, too, with um Sherlock. So it's probably where he came up with it.

Andrea 8:27

Maybe. I mean, I don't know how common of a last name Holmes is. I mean I come to think of it, I don't really know if I've ever heard anybody else with that last name motherfucker.

Paul G 8:38

That's probably why what's his name picked it to begin with. Yes, but what was that guy's name that wrote that? Oh Arthur Cornendole. It's interesting because he's all buried in logic when he writes his stories, but in real life, he was all about seances and contacting the afterlife and ghosts.

Andrea 8:56

Everybody was at that time frame.

Paul G 8:58

I mean that not his not not his buddy, uh Houdini. Houdini he Houdini knew better.

Andrea 9:05

Houdini was trying to prove that that was like totally the farce, and people were just like taking your money for that type of spiritualism type stuff.

Paul G 9:13

Yeah, he came, he came that guy came from a family of gypsies almost.

Andrea 9:19

Which one?

Paul G 9:20

Uh Houdini.

Andrea 9:21

Houdini, I think he can't uh shoot, I know I've read this. I think he's come from like pretty normal. I mean, not normal, but I mean like um I want to say a Jewish family. Yeah, I want to say.

Paul G 9:32

Yeah. Um but yeah, like Yeah, he knew all the tricks, see. And he would go in when everybody was getting their seances done, Houdini would go around and bust the seances.

Andrea 9:44

I don't blame him. They're still kind of sh they still fool people now when they don't have any ability to do it.

Paul G 9:49

I can I can no, they have an ability. They have an ability to read the person that they're sitting across from.

Andrea 9:55

Yeah.

Paul G 9:56

And that's all it takes. As a sales guy, back in the day, I sold insurance and had to interview people at their workplace for their insurance. If I didn't read them correctly, I couldn't sell them anything.

Andrea 10:08

Yeah, that's true.

Paul G 10:09

If I had an if I didn't just want to talk to them about insurance, I probably could have been the wizard who conjures your lost dog to tell you what treat it liked the best.

Andrea 10:23

Wasn't Holmes also kind of a wizard that he can like manipulate and charm he was a con man from the beginning.

Paul G 10:31

He was a super con man. Um, this guy, he went, you know, Holmes, because we know more about Holmes than we know about, and we'll get into the pathology of Mr.

Andrea 10:42

Ripper Man.

Paul G 10:43

Of Ripper here in a minute. So I guess one at a time, I suppose.

Andrea 10:46

Or we can bounce back and forth, whatever.

Paul G 10:48

Um, Holmes went to the University of Michigan, your alma mater, if I think so, if that's correct.

Andrea 10:55

Uh Michigan State for a bit, yeah. It was close.

Paul G 10:58

Close enough. And he went they reported that he went to medical school there.

Andrea 11:03

Yes, I do remember him. I think I've read some stuff.

Paul G 11:05

He went to medical school there and uh what he was doing at that time, he was grave robbing with his buddies and selling the bones of the he would take he would grave rob. Take the take the the the corpse, melt all the skin and everything off of it, leaving just the bones, because they knew how to they knew how to dissolve you in acid back then.

Andrea 11:27

Wow, yeah, uh huh.

Paul G 11:28

And they'd take the bones, cure them up, and sell them to the university for like a hundred bucks a piece.

Andrea 11:36

I don't I think a lot of people were grave robbing, either for their own medical cadaver or that they I mean you but come and become a doctor. Well, go find your own cadavers. I mean, yeah.

Paul G 11:45

Most cadavers.

Andrea 11:47

You know, I mean they were that was a duck. I mean, that's kind of like I think that was common though, but um to sell them to England it was really bad. Yeah, England was bad. That's where I've read it from. It's like they I think they had to like do pep.

Paul G 12:00

But that was sixteen hundreds or something, wasn't it?

Andrea 12:02

No, it was in the eighteen hundreds. Yeah, I mean, it was pretty common.

Paul G 12:06

Yeah. I mean uh So yes what you know, that's what he was doing. He was selling the bones as skeletons back to the medical school so kids could buy it, the students could buy it from the medical school. That's that's how he got his start. That's how he and it makes sense. He learned to not care about people because he was digging up these dead folks. And he couldn't feel them, he couldn't put them himself in them their shoes or their family's shoes. Yeah. So this pathology starts there.

Andrea 12:37

It had to be had to make it just strictly a business.

Holmes: Cons, Castle, and Cash

Paul G 12:40

Yeah. And to Holmes, the whole thing was a business, right? He moved to Chicago uh in 1886 and started calling himself H. H. Holmes. And what he did with that is he talked a pharmacy owner into letting him be part of the business, right?

Andrea 13:00

Yep.

Paul G 13:01

And Pluto's having issues. Yeah. Probably hearing back there. Shut up. Sorry.

Andrea 13:10

He just wants to join.

Paul G 13:12

Well, he's hurting, he's got arthritis really bad. Um, and so he conned this guy into letting him be the he he basically told him he was a pharmacist, H. H. Holmes, and a businessman. So the guy let him in the door. Within a couple of years, the guy he had pushed this dude out of his own his own pharmacy and took it all over.

Andrea 13:32

Yeah, I do remember reading that and that um like is that where like I've heard conflicting reports about like this is when he's killed like this guy and his wife. Not yet. And I've heard other reports. But he might have. And I've heard other reports saying that they were alive.

Paul G 13:45

Yeah. So I don't know. And by 1887, he built his murder castle on with the money from the pharmacy that he basically conned himself, and the pharmacy's not doing well at this point.

Andrea 13:58

Well, he's definitely not a businessman.

Paul G 14:01

He wasn't a businessman. All he wanted to do was steal.

Andrea 14:04

Didn't he also like buy things on credit and not pay his credit or something?

Paul G 14:07

Everything, yeah, about half of it was on credit, and half of it was money from the pharmacy that he conned his way into. So he's using this guy's money from the pharmacy, telling him the pharmacy's not doing good, but he's taking that money, not showing it to the pharmacy guy, and building his four-story building.

Andrea 14:24

That's crazy.

Paul G 14:25

Yeah, yeah. 63rd Street and Wallace Avenue. I guess it's an empty lot now.

Andrea 14:33

Well, when I was in Chicago, I wanted to go by and see it, but we were afraid it was in the wrong part of town, and we were, you know, not didn't want to get, you know, shot.

Paul G 14:41

So he he in this thing, when he had it built, he would hire a contractor to come in and do one little thing, and they would say later, they said later they didn't understand what he was having them do, but they did it because he paid.

Andrea 14:53

Yeah, makes sense. Right?

Paul G 14:54

So he paid these guys, and then later on, as he got closer to the end of it, he stopped paying these people. But um he had all these little chutes and secret doors and and and gas. He had a room where he pumped in gas to suffocate you. Yeah, and then he would either And he'd take you downstairs, boil off your skin and bone uh skin and flesh, and sell your bones.

Andrea 15:22

Was he still doing that?

Paul G 15:23

Yes, he was still doing that.

Andrea 15:25

Well, I mean he's trying to make a business, not a great business model, but you know.

Paul G 15:31

Um, and then what he would also do is he'd also take insurance policies out on these people.

Andrea 15:36

Yeah, didn't he take one out on one of his like close uh working friends or whatever?

Paul G 15:41

Right before he got caught. Yeah. Um he killed Julia Smythe Connor and daughter Pearl after a relationship with Holmes. After he he he talked told they were looking for a place to stay. He brought them in, had a relationship, and then all of a sudden they're missing. I don't know where they went. And just they just disappeared.

Andrea 16:06

I mean, this is the before the days of like all you had communication was mail.

Paul G 16:11

Yeah, yeah. And her family's like, you know, you could take months before you get another letter.

Andrea 16:15

Yeah, that's true. I mean, so missing persons was like hard to really like nail down.

Paul G 16:20

As Holmes was as Holmes was um uh going to be hanged, right? He claimed that he was starting to confess to all this stuff, trying to get it out of the hanging, thinking that he could do that by telling them that he it was keeping him around longer.

Andrea 16:36

Oh, everyone's done that tactic, I think. Yeah, Bundy, everybody's done that tactic.

Paul G 16:40

They push his hanging off a little further, a little further. He's he's buying time to not die. Well yeah, death counts now that it's him, right? You're gonna meet your maker, I guess you want to avoid it considering you've done a horrible stuff. Exactly. So he claimed uh an abortion death for Julia and poisoning for Pearl. And Julia is the uh uh the mom. Right. So she was having a he she got pregnant, he was trying to give her an abortion, and she died. And then he just poisoned a kid. I'm not raising you, die. Basically. That's awful. I know. Uh and then Emily Emiline Surgrand was an employee that works worked for homes. Um and they know he killed her. Uh and then the World's Columbian Exposition period, which is this is the World's Fair.

Andrea 17:38

Which was a big deal at the time.

Paul G 17:39

Yeah, he he he brought in uh people from there, gave them places, and then killed them. Uh and then Benjamin Peitzel. Pitzel, Peitzel, that's the guy you're talking about. That was his inch that was his buddy. They were in this together, killing people together. Right? And this is right about the time that he was having everything come back on him. All the creditors and everything, and they ran off, right? They got uh so he took, he told Peitzel, he says, I want to take an insurance policy out on you. Then we're gonna find somebody that's dead that looks like you, present it as you, claim the insurance, and then we'll split it. Well, Peitzel was an idiot and thought, yeah, we can do that.

Andrea 18:22

And he was married and had kids, didn't he?

Paul G 18:24

Yeah. And Holmes just killed him too. Wow. Kept the money for himself. What's interesting is then he and and and then he killed his wife and his kids as well.

Andrea 18:41

That's really sad. So you said that he built his Myrtle Cast Myrtle Murder Murder Castle in 1887, right?

Paul G 18:50

Yeah.

Andrea 18:50

Okay, because the Whitechapel murders were around 1888.

Paul G 18:55

Right, and so he was out by then. And then he wasn't arrested until 1894. Texas horse theft warrant.

Andrea 19:06

Really? A horse theft warrant?

Paul G 19:08

Yeah. That's hilarious. 1895 def uh detective finds Holmes, uh, discovers the bodies and the remains of the children, and then by ninety-five he's on trial for Benjamin Peitzel's homicide.

Andrea 19:26

I would think if he was confessing to get more time so he doesn't hang, I would think he'd open his mouth about Jack the River. Oh, yeah.

Paul G 19:36

He would have said, Send me to England, by God.

Andrea 19:38

You know, I think the the attention alone, he'd they you know what he would love.

Paul G 19:43

But his motive was always about see he had insurance policies on all these people. All these people he killed, he had insurance policies on them.

Andrea 19:51

He just wanted money.

Paul G 19:52

Yeah. And so he killed them for the insurance money so he could keep living a high life.

Andrea 19:58

Which is a totally different.

Paul G 19:59

Well, so so what we what we know, so now I guess it's your turn. You tell me jump Jack the River, because it's when now that we know this guy's modus operandi, what's Jack's?

Andrea 20:09

Well, Jack, pretty much we all know anything. It says 1888 Whitechapel, when this was as we all know, was pretty much the um very poor part of England. Um, a lot of immigrants lived in there. A lot of people, I've listened to something about how uh Jewish communities fleeing other parts of Europe were there. Everyone is like crammed in there.

Paul G 20:30

Oh, yeah. There was 40,000 people in three or four blocks.

Andrea 20:33

Yeah, right. It just it was a massive amount of people. In this part of time, Victorian England, like a lot of um, I guess you could say the poor people lived on one side, the rich people lived on the other, and they did not intermingle much.

Paul G 20:48

Well, then you know, they they're they they didn't they couldn't bathe when they had to use the bathroom, they had to do it old world sc style and use a pot and throw it out in the street.

Andrea 20:57

Right. And then a lot of I don't know if anybody knows about Queen and uh Victoria, but um You love Queen Victoria's stories. But anyway, she uh one of the things I watched was an episode on her I I want to do some more research on her, was she started to realize in her own country how much of the poor were not necessarily getting what they needed. And um so basically what's sad about this is uh I also looked up like when did we they had street lights at this time, but not like we think of street lights. But they did have electric lights at that time.

Paul G 21:30

They had electric lights?

Andrea 21:31

I think it's electric lights.

Paul G 21:33

No, no, it was gas because electric lights weren't around since well, I'm thinking like regular, like not a candle. Well, no, yeah, they had gas lines that ran to it, and these guys would walk around on stilts all night and unlight them.

Andrea 21:45

Right.

Paul G 21:46

And then on the morning they'd walk around on still stilts and put them out.

Andrea 21:49

Yeah. So was it, you know, because I'm thinking like when did this come to play? So they did have some form of street lights.

Paul G 21:54

Yeah, there was some some lighting, but not much.

Andrea 21:57

So basically, we all know the canonical five victims, these happen. Between eighteen eighty and eighteen eighty one.

Paul G 22:03

So eighty and eighty one.

Andrea 22:05

Yeah, eighty-eight and eighty and ninety one, excuse me.

Paul G 22:07

Eighty eight and ninety one? Yeah, excuse me. Okay.

Andrea 22:09

And so we all know who they are Marianne Nichols, Annie Chapman, Elizabeth Stride, Catherine Edoes, and Mary Jane Kelly. What we do know about these people is what's really sad about about learning about a little bit more about them is they talks about like how they died, but they don't really talk about who they were. And I'm not gonna get like too specific because I'm sure other people have heard this. But the theme, the gist of the theme was they were women, some of them were married, some of them had children, um, all of them left their husbands or or estranged from them at the time. Um, and all of them pretty much turned to alcoholism. I don't know if it was one of those things where women in those days, unless you were married and had a husband, you weren't allowed to own property, you weren't allowed to have really anything of your own. Everything was through your husband. So if you're having if your husband kicks you out of the house, you have really very little recourse other than to uh sell anything that you can creatively make. Like one lady uh made like uh crocheted like certain things that she would do, and she'd sell those or like make paper flowers.

Insurance Scams And The Peitzel Murders

Paul G 23:19

The one lady was selling flowers.

Andrea 23:21

I was gonna say paper flowers. And um if you didn't have ends meet to get your DOS for the night, which is I think I I think I looked at the phone.

Paul G 23:29

Three pence or something, four pence, four pence, which is four pennies.

Andrea 23:32

You didn't have anywhere to sleep.

Paul G 23:34

Four pennies and you get a room that's smaller, it's probably what a hundred it's the size of a jail cell now.

Andrea 23:41

Yeah, it's super tiny. And so it's a communal bathroom and all that. That's what you got for the night, and then that was it. I'm thinking of it in my head when I was reading that like years ago, uh I equated it to like the um the YMCA or like what is it, the Salvation Army that lets you like sleep the night.

Paul G 24:01

Salvation Army will there's the only in northwest Arkansas, there's only one homeless center, and that's the Salvation Army, and you you can stay there overnight, but you have to pray with them all the time.

Andrea 24:12

There's another place around here, believe it or not.

Paul G 24:14

No, just the one. It's the the other place is only open in inclement weather.

Andrea 24:21

I we will talk about that offline.

Paul G 24:23

Why? There's lots of lady places, but there's if you're a man, you're talking about men, then no, there's no place for a man. No, there's no place for I'm talking in general. But yeah, there's pl plenty of battered women's shelters and things like that. There's all kinds of those. But if you're a dude, you're sleeping on the street or you're going to the Salvation Army, that's it.

Andrea 24:39

Yeah. So pretty much the first one we know was Marianne Nichols, August 13th, 1888. Uh, she's known as Polly. This is the one that I think was like extremely sad, is because she um was married and she had children and I want to say five children.

Paul G 24:53

They were grown by now. No, I think I don't know. They weren't little kids. They were they were grown, they were old enough. It and and 14 is old enough to have your own apartment, your own job in 1880.

Andrea 25:03

I can't find anything to conclusively say how old the children were, other than I got the impression that maybe they were um not grown in this particular lady. But um this is the one that always is really sad, is she um basically her husband uh had to let her go because kick her out because she was drinking too much. And so I don't know, but that's kind of the circumstances of he's the one that identified her body as well as her father, I read on something. Like they came to see her. So uh, but basically difference between like him and Holmes is he cut his victims, he mutilated them. I mean, this poor lady that we're talking about, Marianne Nichols, uh, they almost her whole her head was almost severed off.

Paul G 25:48

Yeah, he'd jump them in the he'd jump them. He was he was a it was a a brutal killer. He was on top of you and gotcha. Right?

Andrea 25:55

I mean, you know, we all know like the the theories of this person having like anatomical knowledge, but I mean I don't know how I feel about that.

Paul G 26:03

I mean I we saw that one documentary where they were they were showing us where the cuts were made. Yeah. And it was not a clean cut.

Andrea 26:11

Well, I don't think their instruments were back then were like as sharp or as well known as ours are now when it comes to surgery. I mean I mean, I I'm no expert in the medical field back then, but they we didn't wash our hands or use antiseptic. So you know what I'm saying?

Paul G 26:27

Or give you any any uh anesthesia either.

Andrea 26:30

So and then we have Ann Chapman or Annie Chapman. Um she was married to John Chapman, and so she had was married to her husband for a while, and then um she turned to alcohol for whatever reason, and um she got money from him up until his death.

Paul G 26:46

The the the husband.

Andrea 26:47

Yeah, so she got kind of like I guess alimony per se.

Paul G 26:50

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Andrea 26:51

And then pretty much when that ran out, she had nothing else, so she had to turn to prostitution.

Paul G 26:56

Well, he had payer because he worked for the crown as the as a as a limbsing driver. Like one of them did, but there's yeah, no, that was the that was the one, yeah. So we've been kind of watching this together a little bit to brush up on our Jack the Ripper, because neither one of us really got into Jack the Ripper because it's been overdone. Right?

Andrea 27:17

I think I guess I didn't uh he's interesting, but I didn't get into him because we're never going to know who he is. I mean, let's just be realistic. You can have like all the profiling known to man, but I don't think we're ever really gonna know because fingerprints were in their infancy, there was no DNA, there was none of that stuff. They pretty much, from what I read, like the body's mutilated. Oh, we need to get this off the street immediately because people will come gawk.

Paul G 27:46

Yeah.

Andrea 27:47

And you know, and uh harass the police or whatever, and uh one of the victims had a very shrewd, nasty comment about the Jewish people on there, but which we don't know if it had anything to do with the murder or not, but it was well and some people say that it's the the night or the uh the that temple place, what was it?

Paul G 28:06

The the secret society Masons, yeah. Because it's it it it it lean it tracks with the Mason's lore. So more than likely it was up there beforehand anyway.

Andrea 28:17

I don't know. I mean uh Jewish anti-Semitism in this part of England was really, really bad.

Paul G 28:22

Well, and during the time period it was really bad too.

The Timeline Problem

Andrea 28:25

So Ann Chapman was the one that did all the little crocheting and the little paper flowers and stuff like that, but she was pretty much just mutilated, lying and found on the steps in the basically in a backyard next to a fence. I mean, let's just be realistic, just extremely like brutal and cruel. And we got Elizabeth Stride, uh, she's the one from Sweden. She got married to John Stride, and they opened up a little coffee shop, I read. So supposedly whatever happened to them, they had a falling out.

Paul G 28:53

It obviously wasn't a Starbucks.

Andrea 28:55

No, no Starbucks. But um the couple separated, and then um she was attacked. But what I thought was interesting about this that made me think the sign of the times is she was witnessed by a gentleman who saw um her in the what some say is the beginning of her attack, but a gentleman witnessed this and figured it was a domestic dispute, so he crossed the street and didn't want anything to do with it.

Paul G 29:19

Well, that's what I would do, because this is none of my business.

Andrea 29:21

But uh but if you think about it, like okay, women could beat their wives back then and it was men could beat their wives back then. Yeah, sorry. And um well, women probably could beat the husbands too.

Paul G 29:32

I mean if they're big enough.

Andrea 29:33

And so and if for men to do that, the women it was considered uh okay normal normal. So if you see like two people struggling in the street, you know Well, fist fights were a thing too.

Paul G 29:46

I mean, they would break out in bars, nobody go to jail, they just start drinking again.

Andrea 29:49

But I mean, if he would have stopped and said something or done something, you might have ran him off. Exactly. Things might have changed for this person, but or he might have got stabbed too.

Paul G 29:59

Yeah.

Andrea 30:00

I mean, but if you think about it, it's the same way now. Anybody that sees anything, they don't do anything, say anything, they just don't pretend it doesn't happen. Like I'd rather have somebody overreact than underreact.

Paul G 30:12

I sit back and well, I've had put in those situations before, and I just sit back and watch, and I get a good lay for the land if about five or ten minutes, and if and then I can tell if it's gonna get serious or not, and sometimes it's just two people being assholes to each other.

Andrea 30:26

Yeah, but it's just like so crazy that he's like, nope, one nothing to do with this, and cross the street.

Paul G 30:32

But he's an eyewitness. He gave a he gave an eyewitness report, didn't he? About what the guy looked like.

Andrea 30:37

And they describes every like freaking normal person in in England at that time.

Paul G 30:42

Five eight to five ten male Caucasian mustache. With the with a Sherlock hat on.

Andrea 30:49

Oh, a slouch hat.

Paul G 30:50

No, it was a hunter, it's a hunter's cap.

Andrea 30:52

Oh, I thought it was called a slouch hat.

Paul G 30:54

Well, it might be, um, but it's also the hunter's cap it has two brilli two brims, one in the front, one in the back.

Andrea 30:59

I mean, that could be considered anybody, yeah.

Paul G 31:02

I mean, even today, that's like whatever makes it.

Andrea 31:04

But I think what in our minds, when you hear junk mustache back then, too. You think of what Hollywood has played him up to be. Yeah. It's this well dressed, top hat, top hat, you know, uh gentleman kind of person. And we were talking about this before we um before we decided to do this episode, like what our theory would be behind that, and we'll get into that in a minute. But I kept thinking Hollywood's what played that up. There's like nothing that we could I could find that or have read or listened to where he's portrayed as you know anything other than a normal dude. But Hollywood makes him out in your mind to be like this person that sneaks into the night and does this and sneaks out.

Inside Whitechapel

Paul G 31:45

And those hunters' caps were very popular at the time. That's why Sherlock Holmes wears one, which may be what they oh, he wore the same hat. Must have been, you know, Holmes, because he named himself Holmes. And it it those are very popular at that at that time. That was the thing to wear if you're gonna go out and fox hunt or whatever. It's kind of like wearing uh certain type of boots or some hip waiters when you're duck hunting, you know, it's just the things that we do now that they didn't do then.

Andrea 32:14

Yeah. We have Catherine Edoes, she was married, though I could find though I've certain things I've read said they can't find any proof of that. But then when she is separated from this person, then she ended up finding another guy, murdered the same way, like pretty much just she was if disemboweled.

Paul G 32:29

Yeah, the other two weren't, but she was disemboweled. He escalated the more he killed the and the except for that one woman where he killed her and then had to run off. And that was two on the same night, wasn't it?

Andrea 32:41

Yeah, two on the same night.

Paul G 32:42

Yeah, and he got interrupted on one of them and he ran away. Yeah, and then killed another woman like twenty minutes or like an hour later.

Andrea 32:48

And so the one that we always like, Mary Kelly, like her body was actually found in a room. Oh yeah.

Paul G 32:54

And that's when pretty much I think like height of ex escalation for this guy.

Andrea 32:59

Like the pictures of her like post mortem, you can find them on the internet. It looked like if I if I'm getting my I've seen a lot of these pictures, I'm hopefully I'm getting this correct. It looked like they had to staple her face back together in order to make her look like she was actually a person.

Paul G 33:13

Yeah, yeah. He'd cut her face off. He'd cut he'd he'd he'd cut her cut everything out of her, removed all her insides.

Andrea 33:22

Yeah.

Paul G 33:22

I mean, this guy was brutally crazy.

Andrea 33:24

So our argument is that doesn't match Holmes.

Paul G 33:28

No, not at all. He didn't do that. What he he yes, he would he would cut them up and and and remove the stuff, but not for not till he wasn't curious.

Andrea 33:40

He didn't butcher them in the streets and leave them to be found.

Paul G 33:44

No, and he got and so if it could be said that this is two different men, but I don't think so. I think it's the same guy. The it home uh the the not the Holmes guy but the Jack the Ripper is the same guy for all these murders, these conical colonical colonical? No, it's not a colonical. The conical for conical murders. Oh my god. It's the same guy, it's it's it's just an escalating MO. How many times have we seen this though? We've seen this MO in modern times, haven't we?

Andrea 34:18

Yeah, we have.

Paul G 34:19

And it's usually a spree killer who is very disorganized. They say he was organized, but I don't think he was because he's disorganized. Because he didn't he didn't plan them. He walked up, says, Hey, will you do this for me? Yeah, let's find a nice secluded place so we can have just a little bit of privacy out here in the middle of the street. Takes him around the corner and kills him.

Andrea 34:40

But if you think about it, we don't have any idea who this man is. We have no writings on it, we have nothing other than he could have been a person that maybe watched these people. He went to an area where prostitution's heavily.

Paul G 34:52

It wasn't the prince. He was he he was having dinner with his mother.

Control vs Compulsion

Andrea 34:57

I was gonna get to that. Sorry. But um, I mean he more than likely I he could have been, you know, like I was saying, like uh watching these people.

Paul G 35:08

Yeah.

Andrea 35:08

Well, and a lot of these prostitutes probably knew each other, like now in today's society for prostitutes and other committers, I mean people that have done that.

Paul G 35:16

Yeah, those are high-risk lifestyles.

Andrea 35:17

Like Ridgway, for example.

Paul G 35:18

Like he I think Ridgway's the best example of a modern day man that's the same.

Andrea 35:25

So, yeah, probably for him.

Paul G 35:26

And ex explain Ridgway real quick real quick.

Andrea 35:29

Basically, we all know Ridgway. He uh would take prostitutes from a particular area.

Paul G 35:34

He would um I don't really know a whole lot about him other than he just like uh He'd murder them, have sex with them, and then this and then take them apart and give them to the Was it the guy that gives them to the pigs?

Andrea 35:43

No, Green River Killer.

Paul G 35:44

That's the green oh Green River Killer. Sorry, I got mixed up.

Andrea 35:47

And so, you know, but he basically made them comfortable. So I'm guessing there's probably he's a guy that'll fit in. He's a guy that is blend in. He's a guy that you know, maybe he watches these girls, maybe he watches all you know, maybe it's a crime of opportunity. We're never gonna really understand.

Paul G 36:04

So a dude in a top hat or having his own carriage bring him in, everybody's gonna know he's there. So I don't think there's But a dude who stinks and is all dirty, everybody's gonna walk by him and go, no, he belongs here because he looks just like everybody else.

Andrea 36:19

So, yeah, like the Prince Albert Victor, the royal theory, supposedly, of who Ripper is. I I laugh at this because there is just no way in hell. Because number one, this is Queen Victoria's grandson, okay? Uh granted, he died of 28 of the flu. So he's also like pneumonia, I thought. Uh flu pneumonia.

Paul G 36:38

A lot of it that really is probably just syphilis.

Andrea 36:40

No, it says flu pneumonia in those days, yeah, supposedly. They're never gonna put syphilis on a death certificate of a royal. Let's just be realistic. And so um basically he liked his prostitutes. Yeah. He was kind of a bad boy. He was kind of Queen Victoria was not happy that he was second in line to the throne and he was kind of like just kind of whatever you told him to do, he did the opposite. Yeah, I'm guessing. And but you know, she was also a very controlling Queen Victoria, was a controlling of her children and her grandchildren.

Paul G 37:07

So So there is part of the the MO there of an overbearing mother figure in the life. So, I mean that the the the the the psychology could match, but it doesn't because he was not there. Plus, if a royal's going out, I figure it this way, if a royal's gonna go out and kill somebody, right?

Andrea 37:27

Yeah.

Paul G 37:28

They're not gonna go to the street, they just have somebody brought in and then give them to the dogs out back, and no one will say anything.

Andrea 37:34

I think the royal family in general is probably has so many um surveillance servants. Yeah, they're never alone.

Paul G 37:42

They're surrounded by people.

Andrea 37:44

So they're never this would have to be like the biggest crimes conspiracy ever of A. He would have to go into, but then if you think about it, and I say this, I would track back. Most people probably didn't knew who he was, maybe, unless you were like with an entourage and you got all the little stuff on that says who you are. He most people probably only knew him from a portrait.

Paul G 38:06

Yeah, that was hand-drawn and could very be very wrong. You know, or uh they didn't print pictures in the papers at that time. It was always the drawings. An artist had to do it.

Andrea 38:15

So most of the royal family in those days didn't go out in they didn't do what the royal family does now about opening up grocery stores or hospitals or whatever. You know, they didn't they didn't do that kind of stuff that came up with.

Paul G 38:28

There's the scissors king. Yeah. And you cut the ribbon from like.

Andrea 38:32

But I mean, because if you I just think that there's no way this could be him because that would just there's too many, there's too many people with squealing.

Paul G 38:41

And his servants verified his alibi.

Andrea 38:44

Yeah, that too.

Paul G 38:45

There's that. Uh who else is on that list, just out of curiosity.

Andrea 38:49

Let me look here. One of them I thought was kind of funny.

Paul G 38:52

Oh, the doctor.

Andrea 38:54

The Queen's Doctor was also Oh, you know, if anyone's watched the movie From Hell with Johnny Depp in it, it talks about this conspiracy thing in it. But uh, let's see here. We've got uh oh yeah, Michael Ostrg, a con man, sometimes described as a doctor. Yeah. Um we've got one guy, if I see if I can find his name here, that uh that he was a painter.

Paul G 39:18

Yeah, that the he was a a a painter from Walter Sri was France, French, wouldn't he?

Andrea 39:25

Popularized heavily modern books and TV, real person in the fact he had a lot of a fascination and interest in Jack the Ripper, and I guess he had these paintings that they thought mimic crime scenes.

Paul G 39:35

He was a fanboy.

Andrea 39:36

He was a fanboy, yeah, exactly.

Paul G 39:38

I think he was just like us listening to it right now, yeah, that would be him. Yeah, and anybody who's got uh collectible items of somebody's serial kill si a serial killer somewhere doesn't mean you are, it just means you're interested. You're you're fascinated by it and you want to have some memorabilia. And there's nothing wrong with that. I wouldn't do it, but I would there's nothing wrong with that.

Andrea 39:57

I mean, yeah, I mean J Gacy painted and people bought his paintings. Oh my god. So then another one I thought was interesting is Jill the Ripper.

Paul G 40:06

Jill?

Andrea 40:06

Yeah, they call it Jill the Ripper.

Paul G 40:08

Now Jell O the Ripper.

Andrea 40:10

No. In those days though, uh you had midwives, and midwives are usually gonna have aprons on carried and covered in blood because they're gonna be delivering babies, and that's a messy business. But uh they think Mary Pearcy, who did commit a murder, but not uh not like a ripper series, but I guess uh isn't she the one that killed her husband or something? But um it's possible it could be female, but I I don't know.

The Canonical Five From Nichols to Kelly

Paul G 40:37

I don't know if I'm really it's a male-dominated crime scene. I mean it's it's the he grabs them from behind, slits her throat. I mean, yes, a woman can have enough strength to slit somebody's throat all the way to their spine, but however he carries and does things in it it's gotta be a man. I mean it's it I would say there's a two percent chance at possibility that it might be a woman. So that makes it like a half a percent chance because it's m a two percent might be. So that makes it half a half a percent of that it is. So France I'm reducting my own stuff at this point.

Andrea 41:16

Francis Trumble, American quack doctor.

Paul G 41:19

No.

Andrea 41:20

Um why people push it is that he was arrested on unrelated charges, fled the UK, and became I guess that's why he guess he fled the UK.

Paul G 41:27

Yeah. I'm leaving. Yeah. You're fleeing the UK for other reasons, more likely.

Andrea 41:32

The one that I kind of lean on quite a bit, oh, here's the one, that not that one. A barrister and school teacher.

Paul G 41:39

Oh, yeah, that guy.

Andrea 41:40

Yeah.

Paul G 41:40

No, he he's just a he he that one I know the doctor, the Queen's doctor, had had a stroke, and he was still considered a suspect, but the man had a stroke. There's two two years before this.

Andrea 41:53

I mean, m sometimes people could have strokes and now and with really good therapy and patients, you can get most of stuff back, but then I don't know.

Paul G 42:03

I yeah, I don't but the one guy, so we watched a a 1980 something uh show that's on Prime Video, I can't remember what it's called, about Jack the Ripper, where they had our uh as you know, we have Cade Mercer, right? And he's a fake AI profiler.

Andrea 42:24

Yeah.

Paul G 42:24

Right. And it's programmed to only have the books of the profilers who created profiling. And he takes and that program takes from all their knowledge and profiles for us because it's interesting. And we generally agree with the AI like 99% of the time.

Andrea 42:43

Yeah, but we're just armchairing this. We're not doctors.

Paul G 42:46

That's why I did the AI guy, just to give us a little bit of you know, because it knows way more than we'll ever know.

Andrea 42:51

Yeah, but nobody come after us.

Paul G 42:52

It just doesn't have a hunch, that's all.

Andrea 42:54

I'm just trying to say that like nobody come after us, we're not experts.

Paul G 42:57

Was it Douglas that was on the show?

Andrea 42:59

It was Douglas.

Paul G 43:00

Yeah, so Douglas was on the show and with another profiler that's also there, and he was probably if you've seen the the TV show on Netflix, uh Mindhunter. Mindhunter, more than likely the guy he was with was the dude that that's doing all the transcriptions. And this like the third man down, because you got the two profilers and then you've got the the lady and then you've got the third man down that's friends with the boss. Right. That's probably what his position would be most akin to. And I'm probably wrong about all this, so just keep that in mind. But anyway, Douglas is on the show with his buddy from the FBI, both of them are FBI, and they're the ones who came up with this science that we're using today in every crime scene that we ever go to and as as a as a country that's built into the detective work.

Andrea 43:56

That and other theories.

Paul G 44:00

It's this part is baked in as well. And they immediately hit on this Polish guy.

Andrea 44:07

Aaron Kosminski.

Paul G 44:08

Yeah. And how what was his pathology?

Andrea 44:12

Uh he lived with his a family that was predominantly women, had lots of sisters.

Paul G 44:18

And a dominant mother.

Andrea 44:19

A dominant mother.

Paul G 44:20

Uh he was still living with him when at 26 to 28, 29.

Andrea 44:25

I think he's gotten in trouble a couple times with like being aggressive towards his sisters.

Paul G 44:28

Yeah, he beat up his sisters a few times.

Andrea 44:31

But um also um trying to think what else he uh was kind of in mood swings, if I remember correctly.

Paul G 44:38

Yeah. Um he was in he was in uh institutionalized before the murders happened and let go.

Andrea 44:46

Correct.

Paul G 44:47

So he's already been in the nuthouse.

Andrea 44:49

And I think his family put him in the second time.

Paul G 44:51

The first time too.

Andrea 44:52

Yeah.

Paul G 44:53

They put him in both times. Um shortly after the murders stopped, the last one, not too long afterwards, he was committed for the rest of his life to an insane asylum.

Andrea 45:05

But my question is, and I cannot remember that did he live in the Whitechapel area?

Paul G 45:09

Yes, he did.

Andrea 45:10

That's what I thought.

Paul G 45:10

Yeah.

Andrea 45:11

So I mean, it kind of makes sense. Someone that lives in the area.

Paul G 45:16

Has an abusive dominant mother.

Andrea 45:18

Yeah, for that's not in every candidate scenario, but in this one it is. Yeah. Uh has extreme, I guess, I don't say hatred, but let's just say that.

Paul G 45:26

Oh, yeah, he had an extreme hatred to women. They documented that, that he hated women.

Andrea 45:30

Hate hatred towards women.

Paul G 45:31

He he liked them physically, but he hated them mentally.

Andrea 45:35

So what makes me wonder about him? Uh he's the only one that makes sense to us.

Paul G 45:39

But I think he had schizophrenia.

Andrea 45:40

Yeah, schizophrenia back back then, mental health was just awful. There was none. There was no way of diagnosing.

Paul G 45:45

Freud was still in diapers, I think.

Andrea 45:47

I don't know. Freud, he's a holder person. But anyway, you know what I'm saying? Like he's the father of psychology. Yeah, I get that. All right. But um he There's no way to treat this. So he basically you have a family that's having to put up with him, beating them, beating up the girls in the household, probably attacking the mom. Doesn't say anything about the dad.

Paul G 46:09

Yeah. He was like not there.

Andrea 46:11

And so um what are you gonna do?

Paul G 46:14

I mean, right. So that's that's probably the guy that did it. I mean, there's I after listening to all the evidence and reading everything myself, I'm like, that's that's I don't know if he did it, but that would be the guy I would look at closely.

Andrea 46:30

So he also lives in the area, but why he picks prostitutes is probably just because opportunity. Yeah, yeah. So my question to you is, is what makes you think that it's not Holmes? Since we've railed down our suspects, why don't you tell everybody what means?

Paul G 46:43

Well, we know what Holmes's MO is. We know what his you know what his motivates him, and that's money.

Andrea 46:49

Yeah.

Paul G 46:50

Every death is tied to a paycheck.

Andrea 46:53

How come nobody caught on to that after a while? Insurance I guess insurance companies weren't even thinking about that.

Paul G 46:58

That's well, back then you could insure somebody and not have an insurable interest. Yeah, I spent now what's happened is all in US insurance law, and it's a in each state has its own insurance law. And there's a few governing things from the Fed side. But now they won't you cannot insure someone for life insurance if you have no uh direct tie to them, like family member, or if they're a partner in your business. If you work with a guy who if he doesn't show up that day, you're you're screwed and you you ha your work hurts. You can't insure that. It's not not possible. If you have a partnership with somebody, then you can insure them, but only with their permission. Back then you could get a life insurance policy and they didn't even know you did it.

Andrea 47:56

That's crazy.

Paul G 47:57

But I mean That's why the laws exist.

Andrea 47:59

But yeah, it's always gotta be like some but it kind of makes sense though, because yeah, I mean that people were killing other people like crazy for the insurance money.

Paul G 48:07

And that's why they had to pass a law where you can't get the insurance money, even if you're the beneficiary, if if you killed them.

Andrea 48:13

Well, like, yeah, I mean that's it.

Paul G 48:15

Used to not be that way.

Andrea 48:16

So what are you gonna do? Sit in prison with like uh the million dollars? Yeah, what are you gonna do with that?

Paul G 48:20

I don't know, but if you get the money before they convict you, you can get the hell out and go to Costa Rica.

Andrea 48:25

That's probably what people did. That's why there's a law.

Paul G 48:27

Or they just go to Texas like Holmes did. But every every time he committed a crime, it was for the paycheck. So why would he kill somebody just to look at their internal organs and no insurance? No there's no there's no financial outcome. So it doesn't make sense. There they the reason Holmes killed is not the reason that Jack the Ripper killed.

Andrea 48:55

I think Jack the Ripper killed just because he was essentially uh crazy.

Paul G 49:00

Yeah. Well, yeah, and he and he hated women, and if he hated women, if the profile is correct, and he hated women, then i it's that's the why he killed them. I'd be curious because he wanted to kill the one that was bothering him, like the what's his name in the Netflix series that they go and talk to all the time.

Andrea 49:17

Kemper.

Paul G 49:18

Kemper. He killed those women because he considered them to be a re representation of his mother who he killed last.

Andrea 49:28

Kozaminsky, I'd be curious to know what his mother was really like. We're hearing so many conflicting reports about what other we don't really know it's so far ago.

Paul G 49:37

We have no idea. And we'll never have any idea. No. Unless you invent time travel. So, really, what do you think? That the does the way Holmes killed and why he kills versus Jack the Ripper kills, do they even closely match?

Andrea 49:52

No, they're the totally different MO. You can argue that probably will Holmes escalated. Oh, for what he gets no benefit out of it. So no. No. But um Ripper's benefit is, I guess, satisfaction of taking out anger on another female in place of either someone in his life or something.

Paul G 50:12

Something, yeah. And Holmes did not care. He was just, I just need much paycheck. I mean, he killed his partner for the paycheck because he didn't want to split it with him.

Andrea 50:23

That's just being an a-hole.

Paul G 50:25

Yeah, that's what Holmes is, is an asshole.

Andrea 50:27

Yeah.

Paul G 50:29

You know? So if you understand why these guys killed, there's there's no overlap at all.

Andrea 50:37

Yeah.

Paul G 50:38

It's he's Holmes wasn't doing it for fun because he conned women and had sex with them and gave them abortions. He wanted them around.

Andrea 50:49

The other one probably doesn't want them around, hence why he's beating them up.

Paul G 50:52

And killing them, yeah. Yeah, killing them, yeah. And and beating up his sisters. We don't have any any reports of of Mudgeon ever going to jail for a fight or beating up somebody. Not one.

Andrea 51:07

No, not that we've been able to encounter now.

Paul G 51:09

And if you're that big of a that big of a rage killer, like Jack the Ripper, you would have jail time. There would be something in his record that you could find that he's done something bad. Killed a horse or beat up a guy or set something on fire to get back at you. Well, yeah, I mean there's no financial incentive for him to do it, he's not gonna do it because he didn't care.

Andrea 51:34

No, I mean he was all money, I guess, money motivated.

Paul G 51:37

Yeah, he's greedy bastards what he was.

Final Verdict

Andrea 51:39

Yeah.

Paul G 51:40

So I think it's put to bed. I don't think there's any way that Jack the Ripper and H. H. Holmes are the same guy.

Andrea 51:49

I don't think they are either.

Paul G 51:50

I'm like a hundred percent convinced.

Andrea 51:52

I know there's people that feel that way. I think they want to feel that way maybe because Well, it's sensational and fun. But what tied them? What what what I want to say that I would time, just the time. But was he ever was Holmes ever in Europe? In England?

How The Story Got Twisted

Paul G 52:08

I don't know. We there are no ship records of him going to Europe.

Andrea 52:12

Now I did listen to his uh descendants saying that there is some ship records of what they think we could going that he went over to England. But my argument to that is if anyone's dug on Ancestry.com to find your own family, people's spellings of people's names is never consistent.

Paul G 52:30

Yeah.

Andrea 52:30

And it could be and I don't even did you show an ID to get on the ship? I doubt it. Right. You could say you're anybody. So did he go over there? Yeah. Do I think he did it? No, I don't think Holmes did. But would we ever really can No, probably not.

Paul G 52:48

Exactly.

Andrea 52:49

Records were not that stringent as they are now.

Paul G 52:53

I agree with that. So I I just don't see there I think that there's no correlation at all between the two. Period.

Andrea 53:01

I agree.

Paul G 53:02

And I don't see how they could even I don't see how they could even even remotely think so, to be honest with you. I mean, I we just need to put it to bed and it's done.

Andrea 53:15

But he's always gonna be known as a theory because some people just w want it to be, I guess.

Paul G 53:19

Yeah, they want it to be.

Andrea 53:20

But if anybody out there like disagrees with us, tell us your thoughts.

Paul G 53:24

And what tell us why we're wrong. And we'll ain't we'll we'll look into it, I promise.

Andrea 53:30

Or we'll bring you on, we can all have a conversation.

Paul G 53:32

I'm not gonna have a threesome.

Andrea 53:34

Oh my god, Paul. That's not what I would think about.

Paul G 53:38

There's a hat for sale in the in the in the swag shop that you can go and get, and it says, Oh my god, Paul, stop.

Andrea 53:45

Yeah.

Closing Thoughts

Paul G 53:46

She says it a lot of times because you always have to yell at me. That's just true. Alright, so that's it. I think this episode, I'm I'm just wanted to put it to bed. Because I'm tired of nice Jack the Ripper is AJ Thomes. No, he's not. He never was. Yeah. So So if you like the episode, if you like our little dissertation on facts that everybody else knows and should know better about, go to PaulGnewton.com and get your swag. It's a nice little tab up there. You click on it, and there's a whole bunch of crap, I mean things that you can buy that will help us keep the lights on. Because, you know, we need to pay the extra four dollars for publishing this two days early. Because if we waited two days, that's okay. Four bucks. Anyway. Anything you want to say before we go?

Andrea 54:40

I think we got it.

Paul G 54:41

You got it? Yeah. You sure? Yeah. All right.

Andrea 54:45

Bye.

Paul G 54:45

Bye.